The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2023)

[hearthesilence]

I guess South Park will reprising their tasteless parody of The Accused.

[ntnon]

Just in time for DoD, the trilogy is on Disney+. (Crystal Skull is also there.)

They've been on Paramount+ until now, so this wouldn't be especially notable, except... THE YOUNG INDIANA JONES CHRONICLES is on Disney+, too! Huzzah!

[Swift]

Is it? I didn't see it in their Indiana Jones collection when I looked yesterday, though maybe it's not available in Canada? Are they showing them as individual episodes or the hybrid edited together movies?

[ntnon]

Is it? I didn't see it in their Indiana Jones collection when I looked yesterday, though maybe it's not available in Canada? Are they showing them as individual episodes or the hybrid edited together movies?

Maybe just US.. and it's the hybrid stitched together telefilms, which is... disappointing, but not surprising. And arguably 'as intended' (Lucas-like retroactively) and more comprehensive content-wise.

I have a dim hope that Disney will release a big blu box of YIndy with BOTH forms of the episodes included AND the fantastic documentaries produced for the previous sets. Though... is it now Disney? Or is it both Paramount and Disney? Will Disney buy Paramount-

[Farley Flavors]

^It looks like it's USA only; it's not on Disney+ in the UK either.

[ntnon]

I wonder what the ownership situation is.. did Disney throw money at Paramount for this month only, or..?

[Roger Ryan]

Disney owns LucasFilm Ltd. although I don't know if that gives them all rights to the Paramount releases.

EDIT: Found this on Wikipedia...

"In December 2013, Walt Disney Studios purchased the distribution and marketing rights to future Indiana Jones films from Paramount Pictures, although the latter studio would retain the distribution rights to the first four films and would receive 'financial participation' from any additional films."

So, presumably, Paramount agreed to allow the first four films to be on Disney+ as promotion for a new film that will garner Paramount some residual cash (and Paramount may have received a fee to allow the films to stream on Disney+ as well).

[ntnon]

Marion: I was a child; I was in love! It was wrong, and you knew it!
Indy: You knew what you were doing.

There's a lot in those lines, and they tend not to register because they're sandwiched between Marion drinking a Sherpa under the table and a room full of goons being blown apart. But the oft-described genius of Raider's screenplay is that it doesn't explain those lines. You come in on what feels like entry 8 or 9 of a series and you just have to catch up. There's a whole history between many of these characters you're never going to know, but you'll get tantalizing bits and pieces that make you wish you'd seen all the previous entries. Wonderful.

Just rewatched Raiders, and was on the lookout for the flawed hero and what's actually said about the relationshop between Marion and Indy.

The Internet had already primed me - Spielberg/Lucas/Kasdan brainstormed that they had a(n underage) relationship when she was 12-15 and he was 25; the various supplementary materials had slightly aged her up to be 16 or 17 when he fell out with Abner - and that above quoted line does strongly suggest that that's what happened: a mid-20s Indy had sex with Marion and was chased out by her father, leading to estrangement.

But.. if you watch the film, there's an entirely different impression (perhaps made even more obvious by the script, third draft 1979).

The script has her heavily imply that between her father leaving and Indy arriving, she'd been prostituting herself to make ends meet. Then there's the exchange:

I've learned to hate you in the last ten years. / I never meant to hurt you. / I was a child! I was in love! It was wrong, and you knew it! / You knew what you were doing... / I did what I did, you don't have to be happy about it, but maybe we can help each other out now...

That does not sound like an affair. It could sound like he raped her (it was wrong, and you knew it), but given he proclamation of love, surely if they'd slept together she'd not have seen it as a bad thing... moreover, when they are on Katanga's ship, the script has Indy remark she looks like a 'virgin bride' and Marion counters that some things can't be recaptured (prostitute at the Raven?), he suggests they leave the past in the past and she says 'not yet' (why not), and then they fade-out-sleep-together. However, in the actual film, this exchange is absent and instead he falls asleep to her saying "We never seem to get a break, do we?"

There's a couple of ways to square that statement with an earlier relationship/rape, but it seems to make more sense if they've NEVER slept together - since when the opportunity now presents itself, they 'never get a break'.

Prior to this, in the Cairo marketplace, there's an exchange not in the script. Marion asks him why he hasn't settled down, says her father had him "figured a long time ago" as a bum, that he loved as a son. "Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him," she says. "Not much. Just you." Again, this could read as Abner finding out about a relationship and kicking him out, but to me it sounds different - it sounds like the "just you" is a throwaway to Marion specifically demanding her father cut Indy out of their lives.

I suggest that the relationship the dialogue suggests is a teenage Marion being infatuated with her father's older protégé and throwing herself at him - and him rebuffing her. Maybe stringing her along with promises and then finding another woman, maybe just not reciprocating. And then her feeling hurt because of it.

The script has another brief exchange, where she calls him out for saying he'd be back - could he have promised to return (to start a relationship), and instead picked up with someone else and broken his word that way? That fits with "I did what I didc better, and "I never meant to hurt you" if not entirely with "you knew what you were doing.." It may not completely fit, but neither does the more common alternative.

How frustratingly obtuse!

But like feihong points out, Indiana Jones seems more flawed and compromised, more gritty I guess, than the Hollywood hero he'd later become. He's basically a treasure hunter, one good only by virtue of the fact he tries to commit his thefts before objectively worse factions can do it first. And his personal relationships seem fraught and unsettling (of the 'seducing your mentor's teenage daughter' variety).

Belloq even says that [Indy] will "give mercenaries a bad name," when he talks of them being similar and he Indy's shadow... clearly Belloq at least considers Indy a mercenary.

It's also fairly clear that there's a loose or even tightknit group of adventure seekers: Abner Ravenwood, mentor, who considers Indy the 'most gifted bum he ever trained' implying he trained others; Forestal who entered the temple some time before 1936; Belloq, the bad apple, and also maybe Marcus Brody, who opines that he would have cheerfully gone after the ark himself if he were younger..

Certainly the 'belongs in a museum' and ethical side of Jones is a little hazy, but his acts of compromise seem borne of the situations he finds himself in (and the people around him) moreso than a flawed character.

As a complete aside, if part of musing about prior familiarities: Belloq's interest in Marion could be because she's the Only Woman, or specifically appealing; could be to take something else away from Jones, but.. could he also have lusted after her from afar for years? She doesn't seem to know/remember him, but could he know her?

[ntnon]

The opening to Temple of Doom is even more serially mid-story: who is Wu Han? What were the many adventures he followed Indy on? etc.

[Mr Sausage]

Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him," she says. "Not much. Just you." Again, this could read as Abner finding out about a relationship and kicking him out, but to me it sounds different - it sounds like the "just you" is a throwaway to Marion specifically demanding her father cut Indy out of their lives.

If Marion had actively sought a break between Abner and Indy, she'd hardly say, "Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him". You'd only say that if you didn't know why. Like if the two parties, say, kept it from you because you were a kid.

[ntnon]

Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him," she says. "Not much. Just you." Again, this could read as Abner finding out about a relationship and kicking him out, but to me it sounds different - it sounds like the "just you" is a throwaway to Marion specifically demanding her father cut Indy out of their lives.

If Marion had actively sought a break between Abner and Indy, she'd hardly say, "Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him". You'd only say that if you didn't know why. Like if the two parties, say, kept it from you because you were a kid.

Interesting point. Though that may make it even odder - how could she not know..? That line doesn't seem to jibe with the earlier exchange.

[ntnon]

Temple of Doom is very curious, given that it's a prequel-sequel that doesn't really have any reason to be set in the past - unless to jettison Marion without having to explain her absense?

I still think it the weakest of the Proper Trilogy, and my memory put it down to Screaming Willie and Terrifying Action. But now, while I certainly think those two factors don't help, I think there's a more pressing problem: Short Round is the hero. (Necessarily demoting the titular hero to an also-ran, which is a problem.)

Rather than struggling but overcoming great odds, Indy succombs and fails. And has to be rescued - at least twice: fire awakening him from the black sleep of Kali and removing the Maharajah's knife from the voodoo doll - by his actually-not-that-irritating sidekick. A sidekick should assist, not be the only reason for success. Willie is a perpetual damsel in distress - and even she has to save Jones! The Thuggee ceremony and sets are definitely too disturbing (I remember that I had the Junior novelisation, and distinctly recall the cover and stills causing adult content conern despite it being aimed young..), though Mola Ram is a great villain. The minecart chase is suitably phenomenal, and it's an interesting twist that he chooses to leave the stone in the village rather than taking it to a museum.*

The script is shakier, too. There are pointedly comic interludes (and the memorably disgusting feast now seems a lot more racist than it used to), and the big Exposition scene - over the feast - is dull and distractedly done. The comparable Government Doesn't Know Religion scene in Raiders is rightly lauded as doing the same task well. There's also quite a lot of untranslated [Hindi?] that could have been subtitled.

No insights here into his past, though I was reminded that the diamond in the opening scene (admirably serial-like) is made part of his backstory by YIndy.

*Has it been obvious to everyone that he fails to properly 'win' the treasure in every film?

[Mr Sausage]

Temple of Doom is very curious, given that it's a prequel-sequel that doesn't really have any reason to be set in the past - unless to jettison Marion without having to explain her absense?

More likely the story wouldn't work if set during WWII. India would've been fully into the war, and Shanghai a battlefield and then occupied city.

[ntnon]

I suppose I can see why Last Crusade rubs people the wrong way, given that it's more a missing person chase caper with quips than the Archaeology of Raiders. But it still has all the important elements - including Nazis to punch - and the Grail is the ultimate MacGuffin. Elsa is a waste of space, but she's downplayed as a love interest because this is not Indy&Marion or Indy&ShortRound(with Willie), this is Indy&Connery. And as such his co-star is befuddled rather than gutsy. Connery arguably does more to assist than Marion (who spends half the film captured) aand saves Indy as often as Short Round, but not in a scene-stealing way. The puns and one-liners come thick and fast, but they are funny. They're also symptomatic of wit and intelligence, so they don't - to me - seem out of place.

I know a lot of people put great stock in the Truck chase from Raiders, and I second the praise of the Minecart sequence in Doom, but... there's arguably no more iconic IJ chase sequence than Horse vs Tank (except Man vs Giant Ball). That sequence - capped by the silent and mourning Sallah, Henry Sr and Marcus looking over the cliff - also suggests another factor lacking in Doom: wide open spaces. The early scenes in the Indian village were definitely scenic (and dinghy-ing out of a plane is suitably epic), but thereafter they spend their time underground - Indiana Jones does better in the sun, sand and dust, not the magma and dark.

The opening with River Jones Jr. is too by-the-numbers, but does explain Snakes nicely - not filling in gaps that don't need filling, but adding backstory that adds character - and if it had been snakes and hat only, it would be better. But snakes, hat, whip, museum.. it's too much. But it adds depth to the serialness of the character, because it better defines that his treasure hunting is often personal rather than professional - a suggestion hinted at by Doom's diamond (and later YIndy-confirmed), but not firmly stated. Cross of Coronado on the boat also has the earliest reference to Indy ebong over the hill: "it belongs in a museum"/"so do you."

Professor Jones' teaching - before namechecking a real archaeologist - is deadpan brilliance: 'X' never marks the spot, and real archaeology happens in a library.. it's only when one knows the film that these statements become ironic. In context, they're adequately real and self-deprecatory.

Last Crusade has some of my very favourite Indiana Jones moments - most of them Connery interplay and/or proper dramatic sentiments - but I think one of the best is when Jones is battling Kazim as the boat is being destroyed. He threatens to kill Kazim, and the brother of the cross says clearly "My soul is prepared. How's yours?" This film deals well with faith and belief, even if there are definitely missteps along the way. (Speaking of which - how does Donovan know to step on the IEHOVAH squares?)

I hadn't fully appreciated that Elsa deliberately picks the wrong chalice to murder Donovan. Bit cold.

[ntnon]

Crystal Skull was indeed mildly better than I'd remembered. Everything with Mutt was a little painful, but I think that was a deliberate '50s aesthetic' choice (constant combing, slang, motocycle), so it's.. not so much forgivable as acceptably disappointing.

Him aside (and he's right there, all the time), the first half of the film is actually far better than I remember. The relative-desecration rather than pure-archaeology that I recalled was actually largely a trick of memory, and the action graberobbing in tone with the previous films. The jungle chase is action-y enough to be moderately enjoyable, but it is definitely at this point (with jungle-swinging and something nonsensical about ants) that it falls apart and becomes utter nonsense.

Blanchett is worse than Elsa; Marion isn't really there and degenerates into being a Willie-in-distress. I couldn't decide if Indy's character change from womaniser to pining-for-Ravenwood was admirable growth or awkward writing. Ultimately, after reading through the decade-old commentary here I fundamentally disagree that Crusade is a disappointment or retread, but found instead that Skull seemed to pick-and-choose elements from the previous films to cobble together a stylistically-similar but heart-less outing.

I had forgotten that it ended with the wedding. Out of place, but nice nonetheless. And then ends-ends with a rare in-film snub - "You were hired to take over from Indy, have his symbollic hat- only joking! Get out."

[ntnon]

Young Indy seems to suffer from being recut - though never having seen it in its original form, that's an educated guess - not least because Corey is so visibly older in the filmed-later 'second part' of the episodes. It's also interesting that there's no real (so far) consistency with when or why he adopts his dog's name.

The series highlights another reason - mentioned above as also being a flaw in Doom - that Skull is disappointing: the locations. Young Indy is IN Egypt, Tangiers, Africa and that matters. It's formative and about growth, not adventure per se, and I am looking forward to rewatching the rest of it far more than Dialling Destiny.

[hearthesilence]

Indiana Jones came up when I was talking to someone about this ongoing podcast (NPR I think?) about museum efforts to return stolen artifacts, a touchy and complicated subject, and someone made the hilarious joke that the ancient booby traps laid out for some of those artifacts are probably a far more impressive discovery (like the boulder and the complex shooting projectile system compared to the golden idol Indiana Jones steals at the beginning of Raiders) - i.e. holy shit look what this ancient civilization was already capable of. Obviously these aren't the kind of films where such details really matter, but an amusing observation nonetheless.

[ntnon]

Indiana Jones came up when I was talking to someone about this ongoing podcast (NPR I think?) about museum efforts to return stolen artifacts, a touchy and complicated subject, and someone made the hilarious joke that the ancient booby traps laid out for some of those artifacts are probably a far more impressive discovery (like the boulder and the complex shooting projectile system compared to the golden idol Indiana Jones steals at the beginning of Raiders) - i.e. holy shit look what this ancient civilization was already capable of. Obviously these aren't the kind of films where such details really matter, but an amusing observation nonetheless.

Given that the boulder is essentially all that survives, it would indeed be a fortunate happenstance for it to be worthy of study!

"Ownership" and associated questions are really interesting as filtered through these films. Most importantly, the Cross of Coronado from the Crusade Prologue(s) and the plots of ToD & KoCS revolving around RETURNING artifacts.

[ntnon]

Temple of Doom is very curious, given that it's a prequel-sequel that doesn't really have any reason to be set in the past - unless to jettison Marion without having to explain her absense?

More likely the story wouldn't work if set during WWII. India would've been fully into the war, and Shanghai a battlefield and then occupied city.

Raiders was set in '36, so WWII needn't have been too much of a barrier..

[Mr Sausage]

Temple of Doom is very curious, given that it's a prequel-sequel that doesn't really have any reason to be set in the past - unless to jettison Marion without having to explain her absense?

More likely the story wouldn't work if set during WWII. India would've been fully into the war, and Shanghai a battlefield and then occupied city.

Raiders was set in '36, so WWII needn't have been too much of a barrier..

The second Sino-Japanese war and the occupation of Shanghai was '37, so maybe they wanted to avoid that?

[ntnon]

The second Sino-Japanese war and the occupation of Shanghai was '37, so maybe they wanted to avoid that?

I had forgotten that... but it wouldn't really have impacted much. Though it is interesting to remember that for all of Indy's major villains being Nazis, all his adventures happened BEFORE the outbreak of war (proper).

I wonder at what point Lucas(/Spielberg) mapped out gis Indiana Jones timeline? It seems fair to say that by Skull the future was hazy, but by Chronicles the past was fairly well set - could Doom have been deliberately timed because of a putative internal timeline?

[pistolwink]

Though it is interesting to remember that for all of Indy's major villains being Nazis, all his adventures happened BEFORE the outbreak of war (proper).

Does this mean Indiana Jones was a "premature anti-fascist"? Do the films skip over his interrogation by HUAC?

[ntnon]

Though it is interesting to remember that for all of Indy's major villains being Nazis, all his adventures happened BEFORE the outbreak of war (proper).

Does this mean Indiana Jones was a "premature anti-fascist"? Do the films skip over his interrogation by HUAC?

There's a brief scene in Skull to this general effect, but it seems to be a largely orphaned subplot, and goes nowhere.

[barryconvex]

I really liked this one and I'd probably rank it 2nd after Raiders in the series' pecking order. Phoebe W-B completely walks off with the movie and I say more power to her, she's easily the best thing about it. Ford is hanging on by the skin of his teeth here, I thought he was too old to effectively play this character in 2008, and while his natural charisma is still there I could barely understand a word he was saying even with all the post synching and the theater's volume at teeth rattling levels. I though Mangold acquitted himself well, there was nothing that stuck out to me as hack-ery or a director out of his depth. He's no action virtuoso and some of the CG stuff looked like bad CG but, as he showed so well in Logan, he's at home with a character who's run his last race and is trying to go out on his own terms. Mikkelsen and his henchman are serviceable villains or rather, Mikkelsen pulls in the slack for everyone in his crew whenever he's on screen. The man's got presence and is definitely Indy's most worthy adversary since Bellocq in the first movie.

I'll sum up the plot in a spoiler block that should be avoided by anybody who wants to see this, I'm going into some detail:

SpoilerShow

At the end of WWII a de-aged Indy finds himself aboard a nazi loot train trying to recover the blade that was used to inflict Christ's fatal wound. Also on board is this episode's nemesis - the brilliant but always a step behind Dr. Voller (Mikkelsen). The blade turns out to be a fake but something of much greater value is hidden among the train's cargo - one half of a dial designed by Archimedes which supposedly will grant its owner the ability to travel back in time should that owner ever recover the other half of the dial. The next time we see Indy in 1969 he's a washed up drunk living in a cheap flat somewhere in New Yorck City, teaching at Hunter College. PW-B (who is actually Indy's goddaughter and someone he's known since her childhood) enters at this point to inquire about the dial's whereabouts as it was once in the care of her late father (played by Toby Jones), indy's one time partner and a man who respected the power of the device and wanted to see it destroyed before his death, a promise Indy reneges on in a rare moment of underhandedness. At the same time the dial is changing hands in Indy's office P W-B reveals her true agenda while managing to slip away just as the villains of the story show up looking for the dial and murder several of Indy's colleagues who happen to get in the way. The rest of the story is classic Jones serial: part travelogue, this time veering from NYC to Tangier to Greece to Sicily as the principles all try to decipher where the other half of the dial is located and then obtain it outright, part extended chase sequence - the three wheeled vespa chase through Tangier was a highlight - and part (a small part) history lesson as we learn more about the device's history, where the other half is located and why and about Archimedes himself. This sets up the finale which I'll skip over describing except to say that it ranks a close to second to the opening of the ark in the first movie in terms of cinematic payoff. The movie has a chance to end right here but instead it unwisely adds a coda that...yeah, I really wish they'd just wrapped this up when they had the chance.

I'm curious to see how this will play with the younger crowds, do they care about this character at all? Is Indy vs.the Nazis for the third time interesting to people who haven't grown up with this stuff? Another mega franchise like Star Wars gave itself a chance to recruit new fans with the three prequel films but those had an entirely different set of characters that would've been appealing to young viewers. Crystal Skull might've done the same but instead of youthful new characters it had a crotchety geezer at its center surviving an a-bomb test by ducking into a refrigerator at the last moment. Dial serves as a nice redemption. It would be a shame if this is the last entry now that the series has gotten some new blood flowing. An even bigger shame would be going forward without P W-B taking over the lead role, she's just so completely at home here and as charismatic in the part as Ford ever was.

[aox]

Does this mean Indiana Jones was a "premature anti-fascist"? Do the films skip over his interrogation by HUAC?

I've actually made that observation to a conservative ranting about the newly created boogieman, ANTIFA. I said I had always assumed most Americans were ANTIFA given our collective values and history (WW2). Does this mean you don't root for Indiana Jones anymore when you watch Raiders or Crusade? The blank stare indicated it was a "whoosh" moment for them.