384 Vengeance Is Mine

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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eljacko
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#76 Post by eljacko » Mon May 10, 2010 2:08 am

I just finished watching Tokyo Story again; the first time I watched it was before I had ever seen any Imamura, and watching the film this time I was struck by a strange similarity between the father-daughter relationship in every Ozu film and the one in Imamura's film. They are, in a sense, exactly the same (at least in structure), except in Vengeance is Mine the relationship is explicitly sexualized. On the one hand, I don't want to claim that this is a deliberate decision by Imamura, but on the other hand I know he was influenced by Ozu (working under him for awhile) and the similarities between the relationship here and the ones in Ozu's films are too numerous for me to not simply ignore it.

Since Imamura was much more interested in the "messier" side of Japanese society, almost in direct opposition to the overtly formal qualities of Ozu's depictions, I can't help but think that the relationship in this film is an interesting satire of Ozu's family relationships.

Of course, I haven't actually done a whole lot of reading on Vengeance is Mine, or on Imamura's personal history; has this already been pointed out? At the very least, it's something new to talk about considering this entire thread is old, and about transfer quality, with nothing about the film itself.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#77 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon May 10, 2010 10:19 am

Ironically, the Ozu film that is (almost) protto-Imamura-esque, Hen in the Wind (Ozu's "messiest" film, perhaps) wasd apparently never seen by Imamura. Although early in his career, Imamura "rebelled" against Ozu (and his generation of family drama film makers), he eventually grew to appreciate his former "mentor". Even in Imamura's rebellious period, I still sense traces of Ozu (but even more of Naruse) -- not sure Imamura was "satirizing" Ozu so muvh as providing his own very different take on Ozu's themes.

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knives
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#78 Post by knives » Mon May 10, 2010 3:30 pm

This discussion reminds me a bit of Black Rain, where Imamura is going full tilt on Ozu. My memory is a bit foggy, but I'd have to agree with Michael in that this film seems closer to Naruse than Ozu. The themes are strongly there though and it seems to be in mourning. With really all of his films I get the feeling that Imamura, without judging, is examining the death of the east so to speak. Why is it we'll never have an other Ozu may be another way to phrase.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#79 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon May 10, 2010 3:40 pm

Another Shochiku film that might be referenced in Vengeance -- Nomura's Castle (Bowls) of Sand. Another film with a very fragmented narrative -- jumping around in time -- tracing the genesis of a killer (an opportunist, not someone who kills for its own sake) -- but never really explaining the why. In this cases, Nomura's film doesn't really compare with either Imamura's film or with the original novel (by Seiicho Matsumoto).

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HistoryProf
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#80 Post by HistoryProf » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:20 am

I hate it when I finally see a new (to me that is) film and get excited to see there are 4 pages of discussion of it here, only to find 90% of it is actually nothing more than bitching about the transfer and which release has the "right" color. The obsession this forum has with color timing really drags these film threads down far too often. Having just watched it - and thinking while doing so that the film looks absolutely amazing for an SD DVD - I can't believe all of this haranguing, especially given that it all came before anyone actually had SEEN the damned criterion disc! Most annoying, however, is coming here hoping to gain insight into the film and perhaps awake a slumbering discussion of its merits only to find 50 posts saying "It looks like Shit!!! Do they all have Jaundice!!! THIS IS A DISASTER! UNWATCHABLE!!!!!" How stimulating. I have to wonder if its time we started a "Bitch about color timing here" thread to go with the cover art discussions that are excised from the film threads.

That said, I went to this one after a week long binge on Oshima...it seemed a good flick to switch lanes with while staying in the same gear. When the music first began in the opening sequence I really wondered if this was a Don Siegel/Clint Eastwood cop show...definite ode to US TV in the structure and the music queues over the credits - front and back - and the date/time subtitles that keep us in tune with the Cops' ongoing manhunt. It's just really well done all around, and evocative of the French Connection or Mean Streets in a number of spots: such as when Iwao returns from prison early on and ominously finds Kazuko at home and immediately demands sex. The initial hand held camerawork brings you right into the room with them, and then it moves above as we watch his advances and grow increasingly uncomfortable. This gritty realism accents the depravity of the protagonist and is augmented by hints of old Japan throughout - which makes for a great experience through and through.

Thinking about this next to Violence At Noon and Pleasures of the Flesh, I'm leaning towards Vengeance as the better film...but not by much. They've all really opened my eyes to brand of Japanese Cinema I simply didn't know existed...there's nothing better than discovering those surprises where you never expected them. It does make me awfully glad I bit on the Pigs, Pimps & Prostitutes box at the B&N Sale last year though...Any suggestions on which of those to begin with? I usually try go by the order they were made, but that means Intentions of Murder would be last and that's the one i am most interested in.

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knives
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#81 Post by knives » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:17 am

As far as suggestions go either all work especially since you've already seen the much different and far more difficult Vengeance is Mine. While all of them are very different from Vengeance, there's an insane amount of context you need to be put through, Intentions has the most seeds and is the best of the set to bridge those eras (though one of his docs or Profound Desire would be better). It is just a really great and interesting film that somehow manages to have him totally evolve as a film maker over the course of its run time. Pigs and Battleships, which has almost no connective tissue to Vengeance is also a great film (a few weeks ago I posted my thoughts) that is blistering funny. I'm not sure what to say about The Insect Woman. It's easily my least favorite Imamura and really gets beat by the thematically similar Intentions in all ways. That said it is still a great film and maybe should come before Intentions if just so not to spoil it. The lead performance and how she changes over the years is perfect and carries the whole film.
I also suggest you check out the two Animego titles. Black Rain is basically an Ozu film as horror. It's one of the most consistently astonishing things I've seen. Every frame dances on your spine. Ballad, much like Insect, isn't one of his greatest film, but is nevertheless great. There's one scene particular about half way through, you'll know it when you see it, that is terribly stunning and the example I always use on what Imamura means to me as a film maker.

As for Vengeance, geez if this isn't one of my longest posts, what I love about (and again sort of defines Imamura for me) is how conscious watching it I become of just how different my society is from Imamura's Japan. Every act of sex, violence, or humanity does it's best to rip me through it. It becomes impossible to handle as bizarre acts that he absolutely convinces me are facts of life go past. By playing things absolutely straight, little to no artistic flairs, he manages to convince me of everything while jumping back in disbelief.

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zedz
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#82 Post by zedz » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:44 pm

I'd suggest going through the box set chronologically, if only because it charts an amazing evolution and that kind of viewing option is a bit of a luxury, given how patchy the DVD coverage of the Japanese New Wave is. Then move on to the astonishing Profound Desire of the Gods and the Animeigo titles (and I for one think that Ballad of Narayama is right up there with his best). The final features are fine, but don't burn quite so hot for me. After that, you'll be missing out on some stray features, most crucially A Man Vanishes, which you may be able to track down in other ways, and a bundle of documentaries.

I don't think any of the documentaries are available on DVD, but a potential substitute is: Kazuo Hara's startling The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On. This was, I believe, an Imamura subject that he handed over to Hara (he remained on as producer), and it bears many of the hallmarks of Imamura's documentary approach, particularly his uncompromising, proletarian assaults on recent Japanese history.

Your future Oshima viewing is much more in the lap of the gods, though the early features (to which Pigs and Battleships could provide a useful bridge) are available in Europe with English subs (in indifferent transfers). But these are supposedly forthcoming from Criterion and will no doubt look much better.

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#83 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:04 pm

Why has everyone neglected The Pornographers? I think it's certainly the equal of all the films in the boxset (though Pigs and Battleships remains my personal favorite Imamura).

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knives
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#84 Post by knives » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:11 pm

You can blame ignorance for my neglect. That and Warm Water have been on my to see list forever. Also Zedz, remember when I say Ballad is weaker Imamura that I even treat my least favorite by him, The Insect Woman, as one of the greatest gifts of cinema.

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swo17
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#85 Post by swo17 » Thu May 15, 2014 4:45 pm


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manicsounds
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#86 Post by manicsounds » Thu May 15, 2014 7:25 pm

Nice, they've added the Masters Of Cinema commentary to the new edition.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#87 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu May 15, 2014 7:29 pm

This is great news. CC should correct the problem that the MoC release had.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#88 Post by FrauBlucher » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:12 pm


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EddieLarkin
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#89 Post by EddieLarkin » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:45 pm

So not only is Gary no longer screen capping nudity in his reviews, he is actually removing older instances. The Vengeance Is Mine page used to be filled with boobs! I guess his audience got more mainstream...

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domino harvey
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#90 Post by domino harvey » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:48 pm

I imagine one of the big studios/distros told him he'd stop getting freebies unless he stopped Celebrity Skinning their releases

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MichaelB
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#91 Post by MichaelB » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:08 pm

<gleefully anticipates Gary's review of Arrow's Borowczyk releases>

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#92 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:15 pm

Though by MoC's own admittance their disc has flaws the Criterion doesn't, I think I still prefer their color scheme. Has a depth the Criterion lacks and is more in line with what I'm used to seeing on 35mm prints of Japanese films from this period.

artfilmfan
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#93 Post by artfilmfan » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:21 pm

I also prefer the color scheme of the MoC versions. However, I think the 1.66 AR of the Criterion versions is better.

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FakeBonanza
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#94 Post by FakeBonanza » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:56 pm

Though I agree that the slightly cooler colour of the MOC release better suits the movie, the image seems better, overall, on the Criterion.

Very much looking forward to this release, especially with the addition of the Tony Rayns commentary.

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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#95 Post by The Doogster » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:39 am

artfilmfan wrote:I also prefer the color scheme of the MoC versions. However, I think the 1.66 AR of the Criterion versions is better.
The colour scheme on the MoC is washed out and flat (and the sound is equally as bad). The screen caps are deceptive. Whenever there is movement, the image shows up interlacing artefacts which create a blurring effect.

Trust me - you don't ever want to watch the MoC version of this movie. It looks like someone taped it off the TV in the 1980s using a VCR. The MoC version even has reel change dots, for that authentic old-time look!

Moshrom
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#96 Post by Moshrom » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:21 pm

The MoC colours look rather Agfa-y -- I reckon Criterion boosted the contrast and removed the green tint, just as they did with their colour Ozu DVDs.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#97 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:35 pm

I just checked my MoC disc and it has an incorrect colour space. Once you correct for that it looks a bit better, with the "green tint" largely disappearing (i.e. it wasn't an intentional tint).

artfilmfan
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#98 Post by artfilmfan » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:11 pm

Thanks for the information, Doogster.

I've never seen this movie. Judging from DVDBeaver's screen captures, the 1.66:1 AR gives the picture room to breathe. So, if I ever buy one, it will be the Criterion version, in spite of the lack of green in their color scheme (which we've often seen from their releases (examples: the color films of Ozu as mentioned in the above post, Double Life of Veronique, Red Desert)).

sjconstable
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#99 Post by sjconstable » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:30 am

I sold my MoC Blu-ray as soon as this edition was announced, and the Criterion is the clear winner as expected. As well as the noise and interlacing problems for this particular title, MoC often release Japanese films without adjusting the black level to British standard so they look really flat, washed out, and the blacks are grey - thankfully Criterion always does it properly (Eclipse on the other hand...).

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine

#100 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:38 am


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