12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

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Shrew
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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#101 Post by Shrew » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:57 pm

So before this film accumulates more backlash after the Oscars, I'd like offer a defense against some of the criticisms I've seen in this thread. First, there's the question of how the film differentiates itself from other slave narratives and further validates it's existence within that context. Secondly, the problem of underdeveloped black characters, particularly Northup.

What this film brings new to the slave narrative is its focus on the psychological burden of slavery over the physical (although that is still quite forcefully present). To be more precise, it shows how the system of slavery stripped away a slave's sense of individuality and then further alienated slaves from each other. In a situation like Django where slavery is kept intact largely by horrifying violence and fear of violence, a violent revolt is the logical result, and one of the problems with that film is the singularity of Django's vengeance as a result. In 12 Years, violence isn't the tool of oppression as much as the destruction of communication and the quashing of solidarity. The slaves are all essentially alone.

The film's somewhat awkward media res opening establishes Solomon's plight as one beyond forced labor and physical pain. Despite his efforts, he's totally unable to communicate with either the outside world through a letter, or with his own fellow slaves. My awkward qualifier referred to the sex scene between him and the unknown slave (I don't think the almost horror-movie suddeness of it was the most effective way to handle it), but it gets the point across that even basic loving intimacy is denied to these people, where sex has become a near-anonymous animal instinct that engenders self-loathing.

Again and again, we see slaves isolated from each other, cut off from families or punished for speaking among themselves, and even willfully refusing to communicate with each other for fear of punishment or having to bear the sufferings of another. Michael K. Williams gets killed for trying to intervene in a rape, Eliza's sobbing for her children is not tolerated--Solomon even pleads with her to just shut up, and slaves choose constantly not to intervene when they find someone else in trouble (this extends even beyond the immediate system of slavery, to Solomon's response to the slave that follows him into the shop). To survive, each slave has to think of themselves, and friendships become a liability.

As a result, the black characters do indeed not display as much depth of character as the white slaveowners, but I'd argue that's the point of the film. Solomon's story is one the slow erasure of his identity. I do agree that the film could have been more effective if it had shown more of Solomon's life before being captured, although I think we get enough of a taste to put him beyond a simple black Christ. He's a proud man (watch how he beams as his friend praises his fiddle-playing to the men who will betray him) and he dislikes having his wife take on work. And his turn on Paul Dano may be crowd-pleasing come-uppance, but it's certainly consistent with that same element of his character.

For me, a pivotal scene is the moment when Solomon wakes up in chains and is whipped until he acknowledges his new name. There's a post here on Medieval People of Color in Art about 12 Years and McQueen, and how film was historically designed, lit, and processed for light skin, thus obscuring the detail and color range of black faces. Whatever the films faults regarding black characters, it does render them all clearly lit and distinct. But in this moment, Solomon's face is thrust into shadow, becoming black and invisible. His identity overwritten.
Last edited by Shrew on Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#102 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:11 pm

Shrew wrote:In 12 Years, violence isn't the tool of oppression as much as the destruction of communication and the quashing of solidarity. The slaves are all essentially alone.
I thought this was another powerful and effective thread in the film too - the helplessness of being alone, and how much more it must've felt to be damned and alone when the wrongs against you are so open for everyone to see and yet everyone, even those who discreetly acknowledge the moral wrong, still forsake you. (Up until Brad Pitt shows up, but still, it's there for most of the film.)

Re: the physical and psychological burden, I think McQueen tries to keep these intertwined most of the time, which is another reason why it feels apiece with his other two films - the physical struggle in his films is always matched by psychological burden.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#103 Post by Shrew » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:13 pm

Yes, I think McQueen is definitely engaged in the physical as well as psychological torment of his characters. But my point was that while the physical hardship of slavery has been done many times already, the psychological elements are where the film distinguishes itself.

To follow up with a scene I forgot to speak about: the singing. Again, keeping with the theme of isolation, I think that moment is definitely not the moment where Northup is finally defeated, but a moment where he regains himself, if for a moment. In the sound mix, his voice is quite clearly distinct amongst the choir, so there's a definite emphasis on him as an individual. This is the one scene in the film where the slaves are able to meaningfully interact and communicate, to share each others pain. Having shut himself off, this is the moment where Solomon is able to reconnect to others, and thus keep hold of his own self. One thing that struck me here was the scene right before this, where Solomon and some others are burying the dead man. The one younger slave suddenly asks to say some words about the man, and Solomon (and myself) are completely taken by surprise. This moment of communion is an abnormality in the film, and again I think its to the film's benefit, not its fault.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#104 Post by warren oates » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:18 am

For me it's most interesting to think through the notion of psychological isolation in terms of Northup's internal arc throughout the story. He initially believes himself to be different from the other slaves, because he was educated, cultured, legally free and kidnapped into slavery. The way in which he struggles with his own conception of this difference and the extra dimension of distance it creates between him and all of the others is the subtext of nearly every scene in the film. The singing is a major turning point, a moment where he finally acknowledges both to his fellow slaves and himself that he's one of them, not in any kind of defeatist way but out of profound humility born in shared suffering. And it's only after he comes to this hard won realization that the possibility for his freedom presents itself.

This is the real achievement of the film's script for me and the reason the adaptation should be praised, for giving the protagonist something authentic to do -- real struggles and hard choices -- even if it is so subtle and internal. Anyone who claims Northup's got nothing to do but passively suffer in silence just isn't paying adequate attention.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#105 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:48 pm

warren oates wrote:For me it's most interesting to think through the notion of psychological isolation in terms of Northup's internal arc throughout the story. He initially believes himself to be different from the other slaves, because he was educated, cultured, legally free and kidnapped into slavery. The way in which he struggles with his own conception of this difference and the extra dimension of distance it creates between him and all of the others is the subtext of nearly every scene in the film.
I agree. The film doesn't come into its own until it brilliantly develops that theme when Northup sees one of the slaves rescued from his ship, sparking that flashback.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#106 Post by mfunk9786 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:20 pm

There's a sequence in (500) Days of Summer in which the same party is juxtaposed side by side, one side subtitled with "EXPECTATIONS" and the other with "REALITY." The intention is to represent the protagonist's desires for the outcome of his circumstances, and the much more disappointing actuality. The specter of Quentin Tarantino's masterpiece Django Unchained looms large over 12 Years a Slave in that the former film is the "EXPECTATIONS" slide, an idealized view of what could happen if a slave were to have the resources, backbone, and cartoonish surroundings necessary to fight back against his oppressors. No scenes demand this sort of comparison quite like those in which our leads snag a whip from a slaver (in 12 Years a Slave it's the uniquely slimy Paul Dano, who is quickly becoming one of the very best character actors there is) and fights back with it, wailing on the man who was about to wail on him.

Steve McQueen's film, also worthy of the designation of "masterpiece," is far more unpleasant, but a necessary companion, the REALITY needed to truly put the fantasy-based catharsis of Tarantino's film in perspective. While Jamie Foxx's Django is able to move along from his justifiable assault, Chiwetel Ejiofor's Solomon Northrop is forced to sit and wait for his punishment, nowhere to go, no one waiting on him to continue any kind of fantastic journey of bloody revenge.

On its own, though, 12 Years a Slave provides unique insight into the life of a slave through it's magnificently lensed perspective on the lifestyle of the 19th century American south. Flyovers or perspectives of the size of these plantations are largely absent, McQueen chooses to dwell in the smaller moments from a human perspective - making the life of a slave a much more psychologically compelling affair than most fictional documentations, which tend to be more concerned in displaying the vastness of the enterprise rather than its effect on one's soul. The horrors of 12 Years a Slave lie in Sarah Paulson's sneer or Alfre Woodard's guiltless grin. They lie in Armsby's off-screen betrayal. They lie in the startling muck being sloughed aside by Solomon's raft as he confidently travels across the water, attempting to find satisfaction in the small victory of being the smartest man on his plantation when the mere idea of that being a victory is sad indeed.

Steve McQueen's prior two films were about subjects that some consider very worrisome, but that are hardly in step with the gravitas of American slavery, so the easiest thing for me to forget going into my viewing of the film was how much of a visual maestro McQueen truly is. Working with Sean Bobbitt for the third time, McQueen never wastes an opportunity to find the most interesting perspective on his CinemaScope canvas, making a cart look like an opened sardine can or a letter being written at a makeshift desk look like a wide awake nightmare. His photographer's eye is reminiscent of Stanley Kubrick's, never wasting a frame on some shaky handheld smear, but creating a collection of images that could stand on their own in an ornate frame were the film to stop in midstream. That the climactic whipping scene plays out in one gruesome take is a feat that still has me scratching my head in awe - it's much harder to gush about how stunning a long take is when it's of such visceral horror than when it's, say, Rust Cohle badassing his way though a housing complex or Hanna's stunning fight sequence.

To dismiss 12 Years a Slave as just another throwaway Hallmark recreation of the era is reductionist, and comes from a hardened place that I suppose every appreciator of film falls into from time to time, but to me it's pretty clearly the best film nominated for Best Picture this year, and worthy of the prize on its own merits if it is to win it, though it'll never be granted that respect due to its subject matter - and more importantly, it's one of the very best and most memorable films of 2013.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#107 Post by Black Hat » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:28 pm

MFunk, with your fawning over the film in the Oscar thread I'm glad to read your take on it. Having said that I've had to respond to what you've written.
mfunk9786 wrote:The specter of Quentin Tarantino's masterpiece Django Unchained looms large over 12 Years a Slave
How is this relevant? Why or how is this accurate even if it was?
mfunk9786 wrote:While Jamie Foxx's Django is able to move along from his justifiable assault, Chiwetel Ejiofor's Solomon Northrop is forced to sit and wait for his punishment, nowhere to go, no one waiting on him to continue any kind of fantastic journey of bloody revenge.
What is the connection you are making here? These characters and their stories are about as far away as you could possibly be. One is based in reality, the other fantasy.
mfunk9786 wrote:On its own, though, 12 Years a Slave provides unique insight into the life of a slave through it's magnificently lensed perspective on the lifestyle of the 19th century American south.
Unique how? What was illuminated in this film that most of us didn't already know about slavery? What was the 'uniquely fresh take'? Slavery was and as McQueen smartly pointed out last night, remains, a brutal stain on humanity.
mfunk9786 wrote: The horrors of 12 Years a Slave lie in Sarah Paulson's sneer or Alfre Woodard's guiltless grin. They lie in Armsby's off-screen betrayal...
So the 'uniqueness' of the film is based on a white woman being jealous over her husband's affair with a slave and a black woman doing what she needs to do to not work in a plantation? These are the horrors? Seriously? With respect mfunk this sounds like a lot of flowery b.s. to cover up the fact that the film largely failed into connecting us with one true horror of the film, slavery viewed thru the experience of Solomon Northup . A horror that should have overwhelmed us in every way and for the most part failed. Maybe the flaw lies with Ejiafor's performance, that was detached and cool. In fact I was thinking over the past week how much better the film would have been if we had been following Patsy's story, as N'yongo projected horror in her performance that for whatever reason, clearly McQueen's choice, Ejiafor's lacked.
mfunk9786 wrote:To dismiss 12 Years a Slave as just another throwaway Hallmark recreation of the era is reductionist, and comes from a hardened place that I suppose every appreciator of film falls into from time to time
The film has serious issues. Rationalizing those criticisms away in this fashion is shallow and in fact dismissive, rather than those you accuse.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#108 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:20 pm

Jim Hoberman's review in Harper's is now available online.

Excerpt:

At the press conference that followed the screening of 12 Years a Slave at the New York Film Festival last fall, McQueen recalled his reaction when he first became conscious of the history of slavery. One might have expected him to speak of rage or disgust or sorrow. Instead, he spoke of his “shame and embarrassment.”

Shame is a central theme in McQueen’s work, but it has particular resonance in 12 Years. McQueen did not refer to, nor is his movie about, the shame of slavery (an institution for which “shame” is an insufficiently strong word). Rather, it might be said that 12 Years addresses the shame of the slave.

The embarrassment that McQueen experienced as a child is the recognition that one can be defined by the judgment of another. It is the helpless realization that, as Sartre put it, one is “no longer master of the situation.” Solomon Northup’s shame at being reduced to Platt is a vastly amplified version of the humiliation anyone might feel when cut down to a crude profile — when subjected to a police “stop and frisk” or shadowed by a department-store employee.

Viewers know that the movie’s protagonist will ultimately be freed. The title itself is a necessary spoiler. Like the Jews who found themselves on Schindler’s list, Solomon Northup is the great exception. Not one of the other slaves we encounter in 12 Years will escape slavery. In his heady moment of emancipation, Northup turns back from the wagon carrying him home; he meets the gaze of the movie’s most abused and hopeless character, the one to whom strength and beauty have only been an added burden and to whom even the relief of nonexistence has been denied: Patsey, a solitary figure who represents multitudes. We watch her watching Northup wave goodbye as he, who embodies the promise of freedom, forever vanishes from her world. It’s an ending that, however happy, is by Hollywood standards drastically muted.
Last edited by hearthesilence on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#109 Post by matrixschmatrix » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:21 pm

How is it at all difficult to compare an Oscar nominated movie made about the nightmares of slavery with specific focus on the horrors of bodily violation and forced complicity made in the year of our Lord 2012 with an Oscar winning one in 2013? It's not like it's such a crowded field that the subject matter has to be discounted. Yes, one is fantasy and the other is meant to be more real- that very contrast is elaborated in MFunk's post. Comparing the fantasy of opposing and overcoming the nightmare with the reality of having powerlessly to suffer through it is what makes the two movies interesting complements.

Is your necessary standard for 'unique take' that 12 Years literally shows the viewer an aspect of turning people into property that nobody had ever heard of? It's unique in the atmosphere it conjures, in the powerlessness of the position into which it puts the viewer, and yes, in its take on the mental processes of the slave owners.

I mean, perhaps the movie did not get you into Solomon's head and body, and you have every right to that feeling, but that's self evidently not a universal experience of watching the movie- I very much did feel overwhelmed by the horror of it, and by the existential nightmare of realizing that you have no choice but to contribute to the system.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#110 Post by warren oates » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:54 pm

Black Hat wrote: In fact I was thinking over the past week how much better the film would have been if we had been following Patsy's story, as N'yongo projected horror in her performance that for whatever reason, clearly McQueen's choice, Ejiafor's lacked.
It's exactly this sort of glib suggestion that makes me wonder if you even understand your own problems with the film. And it definitely seems like you haven't bothered to engage with how the film is actually telling Northup's story. Other posts above, especially Shrew's, have done a pretty great job explicating the film's concern with the psychological brutality of slavery, the way the practice systematically dehumanizes, de-individuates and isolates everyone under it. The writer and director have taken pains to structure their entire film around a related conflict, one that only serves to further isolate the protagonist, one that the original written narrative only implied -- Northup's long internal struggle to shed his separate and superior sense of identity, which he falsely imagines could save him, and to accept his shared humanity as another one of the slaves. By the time he's finally, legally freed, the idea that the law should distinguish between his situation and that of any of the other slaves now feels like an absurd joke to him. No wonder his homecoming is muted and strange.

A page back you suggest that there's nothing more to this film than the straightforward story of a wronged man. Which is exactly how Northup himself would misunderstand his situation at the beginning and precisely the attitude he needs to live through the events the film recounts in order to correct.

So, okay, you say you've already had a week to think about it. Let's hear your thumbnail sketch of a Patsey rewrite. And do tell us what the theme and the arc will be. And how you'd both allow her some agency and prevent your film from lapsing into the sort of flat, non-stop litany of torture that other detractors wrongly suggest this film is now.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#111 Post by domino harvey » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:01 pm

Warren Oates, serious non-shit-starting question: Why is your default rhetorical tool always challenging someone to rewrite the existing film to address the concerns raised? It is not the audience member's job to speculate too heavily on something that isn't and never will be. We raise our points brought about by observation and analysis, acknowledge the faults and strengths of the material, and move on. A problem doesn't require a solution to still be a problem.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#112 Post by warren oates » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:02 pm

Well, in this case, obviously, it's because he preemptively offered to do it!
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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#113 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:10 pm

Warren Oates and myself have rarely seen eye-to-eye on this forum, but he has a valid point in saying that Black Hat is proposing some sort of alternate construction for the film that'd make it more palatable and interesting to him without touching on why. Perhaps pointing that out in the format of giving an English Lit homework assignment wasn't exactly the right way to go, but it seems fair to at least ask for some sort of elaboration on why he feels that drastic a change would provide him with, presumably, a film that he'd find far superior.

Also, Black Hat, I'm glad matrix dignified your reply with a response so I don't have to: It's clear that you didn't read the entirety of what I wrote (far from Pulitzer criticism as it is) before responding with snarky questions that, worse than ignoring the points I discussed, instead angrily touched upon them as if I'd never mentioned them.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#114 Post by Black Hat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:05 am

Mfunk: Angry? Almost everything I wrote to you was a question. I wanted you to elaborate further on your points because the explanations you gave didn't in my opinion make enough of a compelling case to understand where you're coming from. It's good to know now however, that on a forum dedicated to serious film discussion you have little interest in doing so. Won't dare to question/challenge you again and assume you're content with having someone else speak for you.

Warren: Thank you for, on account of my glibness, placing yourself inside my head and offering my point of view for me. Wait what? In all seriousness the reason for me bringing up Patsy was not to rewrite the movie but to further illustrate how one character, through her performance, made me feel what I should have felt with Northup's. Clearly the detachment was a conscious choice by actor and director so what I'm trying to get at here, is why that worked for mfunk and now everyone else? Contrary to what you imply my opinions are fluid. In other words I don't come posting here looking to validate my opinions, I come posting here to have them changed.

Matrix: I never said it was difficult to compare the two films. I'm not a believer in making a case for a film on the back of another (unfortunately I sometimes do it myself), or in this case connecting the two. To quote an old professor of mine who got all over me when I did that as a student, "If you're talking about the greatness of one movie by comparing it to another it's usually because you're filling in its gaps and like the other one a whole lot more." Now if we're going to play the compare game, my issue there is two fold. One is as I said earlier that these are entirely different films, whose goals couldn't be further apart. Second, unless it's to contrast the two, when future film historians fifty years from look back at 12 Years A Slave are they really going to compare it to Django Unchained? Is anybody going to use mfunk's hyperbolic 'The specter of Django Unchained looms large over 12 Years a Slave' phrasing in five years let alone fifty? The only reason Django even matters when we're talking about 12 Years is because it came out last year and is still fresh in everyone's minds. It won't be that way down the road.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#115 Post by Black Hat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:15 am

mfunk9786 wrote:Warren Oates and myself have rarely seen eye-to-eye on this forum, but he has a valid point in saying that Black Hat is proposing some sort of alternate construction for the film that'd make it more palatable and interesting to him without touching on why. Perhaps pointing that out in the format of giving an English Lit homework
Black Hat wrote:In fact I was thinking over the past week how much better the film would have been if we had been following Patsy's story, as N'yongo projected horror in her performance that for whatever reason, clearly McQueen's choice, Ejiafor's lacked.
You're a funny dude. As your English Lit professor I'll go ahead and give you an F for reading comprehension. :wink:

edit: typo
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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#116 Post by Black Hat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:19 am

hearthesilence wrote:Jim Hoberman's review in Harper's is now available online.

Excerpt:

At the press conference that followed the screening of 12 Years a Slave at the New York Film Festival last fall, McQueen recalled his reaction when he first became conscious of the history of slavery. One might have expected him to speak of rage or disgust or sorrow. Instead, he spoke of his “shame and embarrassment.”
Thanks for posting this. It illuminates further what I suspected to be the case, that in many ways, I wasn't the target audience. The film was made I reckon more to inform the unknowing rather than as a film with a story, characters and so forth. I've been amazed at how many people I've heard say 'I can't believe how bad slavery was'.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#117 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:25 am

They'll still be two movies made in very close sequence about an unusual-for-Hollywood subject which punish the audience with a form of suffering that is very rarely touched upon on mainstream movies, and there's a very valid comparison to be made between two movies that approach the same subject with the same level of willingness to plunge into the darkness of human cruelty but have wildly different experiences to impart to the audience. Like, I legitimately can't think of two movies outside of like the strange doubles of White House Down and Olympus Has Fallen that seem more to cry out for comparison.

Is your assumption just that Tarantino's movie is genre trash and therefore doesn't belong in the same conversation? Because otherwise I literally don't understand your point. If MFunk was saying 12 Years was worthless because Django already exists, what your professor said would be germane, but that's not what was said at all.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#118 Post by warren oates » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:26 am

Black Hat wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:Warren Oates and myself have rarely seen eye-to-eye on this forum, but he has a valid point in saying that Black Hat is proposing some sort of alternate construction for the film that'd make it more palatable and interesting to him without touching on why. Perhaps pointing that out in the format of giving an English Lit homework
Black Hat wrote:In fact I was thinking over the past week how much better the film would have been if we had been following Patsy's story, as N'yongo projected horror in her performance that for whatever reason, clearly McQueen's choice, Ejiafor's lacked.
You're a funny dude. As your English Lit professor I'll go ahead and give you an F for reading comprehension. :wink:
Strange that you still can't see the substantial difference between suggesting we ought to be "following Patsey's story" and expressing a preference for the actor's performance style, or how what you've written has conflated the two ideas. Aggressively bolding the half of your thought you'd rather defend won't erase the other half.
Black Hat wrote:The film was made I reckon more to inform the unknowing rather than as a film with a story, characters and so forth. I've been amazed at how many people I've heard say 'I can't believe how bad slavery was'.
The storytelling is my favorite aspect of the film. And it's because of the skill with which it's all done, in spite of the incredible degree of difficulty involved, that I'm interested in Northup as a living, breathing dramatic character, quite apart from his status as a historical figure.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#119 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:23 am

I feel so challenged by Black Hat that I wouldn't dare speak for fear of another stalwart intellectual argument: matrix, do it for me. *shivers in the corner, desperate for comfort*

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#120 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:37 am

Let me put this on the table: Two best picture nominees (now we know one won) were released within a few months of each other. Both magnificently shot, impeccably cast (if you come back to me with some argument about how Leonardo DiCaprio is overrated or something else beside the point, so help me god), both exploring the same topic to arguably equal degrees. This doesn't happen often, and when it does, as it did here, in such notably good cop v. bad cop fashion, it's worth comparing the two films. If my review doesn't hold up fifty years from now, you can cry me a river, man. I could not care less: In the context of this forum, as an unpaid short evaluation of my impression of this film within the context of the discussions that've gone on here in the last year, I stand by it. If that's some admission of weakness in your eyes, then so be it, any amount of repetition of questions I've already answered for you isn't going to change my opinion of either film, or how my perceived parallels between the two make both even more interesting and heartbreaking through the lens of my viewing experience.

And for the record: I wouldn't go lecturing folks on how horrible slavery was, as I think anyone raised in the United States who paid attention in history class or picked up a book on the subject on their off hours could give you plenty of information on the topic. If you heard people say stupid shit after seeing this film that implied that they had no idea of the gravity of 19th century US slavery, you might want to take it up with them rather than attack those who found merit in this film without any kind of excuse for accusing those folks of ignorance.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#121 Post by Black Hat » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:35 am

Warren: I never said we. I said based on finding Patsy far more compelling that I was far more interested in her. It's also quite clear that you found the storytelling excellent, I can't quibble with that really, same with it being skillfully executed, yeah sure that's a given. What I have yet to hear is what made Northup 'a living, breathing dramatic character'. That's where we part ways. On another note I find calling something, anything, 'aggressively bolding' hilarious. You will forever have a place in my heart.

Matrix: No not genre trash but I don't really see Django as a movie about slavery in anywhere close to the same vein as 12 Years as you do. It's there but in my view it's not a driving force to that story, it's more part of the set up. Django's a formula film set to the background of slavery. If we push slavery forward then it becomes a complete fantasy film. With 12 Years the slavery, or moreover, the experience of being a slave is its whole being. I don't see how, unless they're being contrasted, they can be in anyway compared as films about slavery. For the record I liked Django quite a bit more than 12.

mfunk: Bless you.

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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#122 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:23 pm



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knives
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Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#124 Post by knives » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:51 pm

Which itself misspells his name as 'Simon'.

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MoonlitKnight
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: 12 Years a Slave (Steve McQueen, 2013)

#125 Post by MoonlitKnight » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:36 pm

As good as the film is, I don't think it was as raw as either of McQueen's first 2 films were, despite having much heavier subject matter. :-k

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