Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

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The Narrator Returns
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#51 Post by The Narrator Returns » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:11 pm

I'd say the PC Police taking my Blu-Ray of Last Tango in Paris is the least of my problems at this point.
Last edited by The Narrator Returns on Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#52 Post by domino harvey » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:24 pm

Probably worth reading Schneider's own take on the matter before getting out the pitchforks on her behalf

oh yeah
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#53 Post by oh yeah » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:28 pm

domino harvey wrote:Probably worth reading Schneider's own take on the matter before getting out the pitchforks on her behalf
Thanks for posting that, but I don't see anything in there that really clashes with the picture Bertolucci has painted.

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Big Ben
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#54 Post by Big Ben » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:41 pm

I didn't even like the film before Bertolucci came out and said this so nothing of value has really been lost to me. I have however lost respect for Bertolucci entirely. Oshima did it better anyway.

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Brian C
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#55 Post by Brian C » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:11 pm

It's amusing in a dark way that this is a BIG STORY now. Schneider herself told this exact story (which domino links to above) years ago and no one cared. Some posters were making fun of her for it in this very thread. Now Bernardo validates her story and all over the web it's all OUTRAGE!!!

Gimme a break. All it means is that no one gave a shit about her side of the story when she told it.

oh yeah
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#56 Post by oh yeah » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:48 pm

Well I'm sure that's true of some people but speaking for myself, I wasn't aware of what Maria said in 2007. And I also think it's somehow more shocking in this clip with Bertolucci because 1) the way he describes it makes it sound like even more of a violation, even worse, than how Maria described it, and 2) somehow hearing it from the director/perpetrator's lips makes it more "shocking" or "newsworthy" perhaps? I don't know. The second point shouldn't be the case of course, but it seems indeed that many people just shrugged Maria off as a druggy has-been, whereas they're willing to listen to anything this man, this Important Director, has to say. I dunno, though. The whole situation is just sickening.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#57 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:57 pm

The L.A. Times obituary for her in 2011 quoted that entire section from her 2007 interview too. I guess it's now an outrage because of 1) Bertolucci's choice of words and 2) more people are far more sensitive of any potential sexual assault or rape (see Cosby).

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Luke M
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#58 Post by Luke M » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:48 am

I think what bothers me most is Brando's complicity. For better or worse, it's not terribly hard to demonize Bertolucci, but Brando is on the Mt. Rushmore of acting.

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Brian C
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#59 Post by Brian C » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:58 am

Yeah, who could have ever guessed that Brando could be a real shit sometimes.

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A man stayed-put
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#60 Post by A man stayed-put » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:01 am

Some of the reaction to this (Chastain, Evans, every other Twitter user etc.) seems to be on the basis that there was an actual rape committed on set and I can't work out whether it's due to them genuinely misunderstanding what happened or wilfully trying to sensationalise something that was pretty repugnant and unprofessional anyway, but nowhere near to the extent suggested.
I know the sexual element is seen as key but directors/actors improvising or using surprise tactics to elicit a reaction without the actors consent is hardly unprecedented- guns being fired on set, people being slapped. Anyone who's ever watched a classic WB montage will have seen film historians guffawing at Cagney doing his grapefruit trick on Mae Clarke.
I'm not defending this or saying it wasn't unpleasant but can't understand the level of some of the reactions (never mind that, as has been stated previously in the thread, Schneider talked openly about it years ago).

worriedfire
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#61 Post by worriedfire » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:40 am

To compare having a grapefruit slapped in the face and having ones anus penetrated is just beyond me. There are boundaries for what's to be considered OK in terms of surprise tactics. This is not OK.

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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#62 Post by Cremildo » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:54 am

worriedfire wrote:To compare having a grapefruit slapped in the face and having ones anus penetrated is just beyond me. There are boundaries for what's to be considered OK in terms of surprise tactics. This is not OK.
Are you suggesting Schneider actually had her anus penetrated in the scene? I think you missed the part where she said what Brando was doing wasn't real. It was simulated.

worriedfire
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#63 Post by worriedfire » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:42 am

Cremildo wrote:
worriedfire wrote:To compare having a grapefruit slapped in the face and having ones anus penetrated is just beyond me. There are boundaries for what's to be considered OK in terms of surprise tactics. This is not OK.
Are you suggesting Schneider actually had her anus penetrated in the scene? I think you missed the part where she said what Brando was doing wasn't real. It was simulated.
My bad, discard my previous comment. Not sure why I've been under the impression LTIP uses unsimulated sex.

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A man stayed-put
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#64 Post by A man stayed-put » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:35 pm

As I said previously, this misapprehension seems to be quite widespread and is not helped by people describing it as a rape. All it does is skew the conversation away from the real point which should be about where the line is drawn for artists in their quest for authenticity or the 'right' performance from their actors. I.e when does it stop being the resource of the driven, maverick director and turn into exploitation?

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MichaelB
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#65 Post by MichaelB » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:04 pm

See also Ken Loach engineering a scene in Kes where five schoolboys really got caned on the hand, which they weren't expecting.

In fact, in terms of actual physical pain being caused, that's arguably worse.

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colinr0380
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#66 Post by colinr0380 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:09 pm

Its perhaps a condemnation of method acting as much as anything, or at least the idea that for an actor to provide a 'believable reaction' they have to be placed in the exact emotional state, or have certain details of a scene withheld from them.

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George Kaplan
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#67 Post by George Kaplan » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:47 pm

A few other notable instances to consider are the controversy surrounding Kechiche's BLUE IS THE WARMEST COLOR, Hitchcock's "surprise" use of real birds (only revealed to Hedren as she was about to go on set) for the filming of the final bedroom attack in THE BIRDS, Shelley Duvall's treatment throughout production of THE SHINING (discussion of which was recently revived here), as well as PORTRAIT OF JASON.
I was prepared to also suggest the famous account of Minnelli's direction of Margaret O'Brien in the snow-man scene in MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS but, by chance, happened to have just caught a TCM Christmas movie documentary in which O'Brien says that the account is untrue, and that she had not been told that her dog had been killed in order to produce the required amount of tears but, in fact, was in competition with June Allyson to be the best crier on the MGM lot. So, scratch that.
However, I'm fairly certain that the history of cinema is filled with countless other examples of abuses for the sake of getting the shot, that they were more prevalent the further back in time you go, and that the great majority of instances involve female performers, especially neophytes, and children.

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Feego
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#68 Post by Feego » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:55 pm

George Kaplan wrote:I was prepared to also suggest the famous account of Minnelli's direction of Margaret O'Brien in the snow-man scene in MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS but, by chance, happened to have just caught a TCM Christmas movie documentary in which O'Brien says that the account is untrue, and that she had not been told that her dog had been killed in order to produce the required amount of tears but, in fact, was in competition with June Allyson to be the best crier on the MGM lot. So, scratch that.
The dead-dog story was used, however, to get Jackie Cooper to cry during production of Skippy (1932). Director Norman Taurog, who was Cooper's uncle by marriage, apparently took Cooper's dog outside and fired a gun, leading the young actor to believe that his dog had been shot dead. He then cried satisfactorily for the scene being filmed and was later reunited with the dog. There could probably be pages written about the abuses many child actors suffered in Hollywood during the 1920 and 30s, including Judy Garland being hopped up on uppers in the morning and given downers at night so that she could work long hours.

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domino harvey
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#69 Post by domino harvey » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:01 pm

And Taurog went on to win the Oscar for Best Director for Skippy to boot (and perhaps worth noting that Bertolucci was nominated for his work on this film as well)

Ishmael
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#70 Post by Ishmael » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:13 pm

Hmmm, the thing is, though, that sticking your hand in someone's underwear and rubbing butter on or near their asshole without their consent is sexual assault. And whether or not she had foreknowledge of Brando's intentions has nothing whatsoever to do with it, unlike many of the tricks mentioned here, which stretch morality only because the targets of them were unaware what was going to happen. So, no, Brando's actions aren't rape, but they're also not in the same category as surprise or emotional abuse (though I don't want to minimize emotional abuse, either). I'm not really worked up about this personally, to be honest, and it's not going to stop me from loving Last Tango, but I do think the rape denial has swung a bit too far to the other side.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#71 Post by mfunk9786 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:16 pm

Agreed. This is vile treatment in any workplace, up to and including acting. No amount of acclaim for a film or even apology changes the fact. Being mean to someone or even psychologically manipulative is not comparable to physical assault.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#72 Post by matrixschmatrix » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:57 am

Yeah, this is clearly a form of sexual assault in a situation in which Schneider felt that she was helpless to make it stop, and she explicitly considered it a form of rape after the fact. The fact that the later penetration was simulated doesn't really enter into it; an indisputably sexual act happened to her against her will. I don't think this really needed Bertolucci's corroboration, but now that we have it, trying to minimize this seems seriously not okay.

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knives
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#73 Post by knives » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:08 am

It seems to me most people's on this board problem lies more with people getting mad now rather than necessarily mitigating that Brando is a dick.

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A man stayed-put
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#74 Post by A man stayed-put » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:29 am

I hope my comments weren’t read as trying to minimise what was done on the set of Last Tango.
To clarify, outside of the wording of whether or not it was technically a rape, I personally feel that the tenor of the conversation- this evil director and actor raped Maria Schneider and the film is now a no go area- has the side effect of creating the idea that this was the actions of two men unprecedented in the film making process. I don’t see how that does anything but sweep under the carpet that this, in different forms, is semi-accepted (or was) as a directorial technique. This was my reason for raising the other ‘assaults’ (and we are talking about actual physical assaults in some cases- although not sexual in nature) carried out in the name of authenticity.

Surely the benefit of this being a talking point now, years after the death of 2 of those involved, is not to single out Brando or Bertolucci but to consider what it says about power dynamics on film sets, especially when dealing with auteur film-makers convinced of the import of realising their vision. Varying degrees of this, both psychologically and physically, seem to still occur today.

I don’t make this point to, in any way, minimise the deeply unpleasant nature of what happened specifically, or the scars it left with Maria Schneider. It’s just sad that there was so little supportive outrage offered when she voiced this prior to her death.

Soothsayer
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Re: Last Tango in Paris (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1972)

#75 Post by Soothsayer » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:35 pm

A man stayed-put wrote:I hope my comments weren’t read as trying to minimise what was done on the set of Last Tango.
To clarify, outside of the wording of whether or not it was technically a rape, I personally feel that the tenor of the conversation- this evil director and actor raped Maria Schneider and the film is now a no go area- has the side effect of creating the idea that this was the actions of two men unprecedented in the film making process. I don’t see how that does anything but sweep under the carpet that this, in different forms, is semi-accepted (or was) as a directorial technique. This was my reason for raising the other ‘assaults’ (and we are talking about actual physical assaults in some cases- although not sexual in nature) carried out in the name of authenticity.

Surely the benefit of this being a talking point now, years after the death of 2 of those involved, is not to single out Brando or Bertolucci but to consider what it says about power dynamics on film sets, especially when dealing with auteur film-makers convinced of the import of realising their vision. Varying degrees of this, both psychologically and physically, seem to still occur today.

I don’t make this point to, in any way, minimise the deeply unpleasant nature of what happened specifically, or the scars it left with Maria Schneider. It’s just sad that there was so little supportive outrage offered when she voiced this prior to her death.
I fail to see how the final line of your post has anything to do with the rest of your position. And frankly, it does read as a bit defensive of Bertolucci's actions in the name of auteur-ism.

Maria Schneider's agency was taken away by this action. Whether it was on camera or off, her agency was taken away from her intentionally for the benefit of a man making a film. That is categorically unacceptable.

Reading the posts regarding this scene in the earlier part of this thread is nothing less than pathetic. Several people in this thread should have been ashamed of themselves when they posted it, and should be ashamed of themselves now.

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