Awards Season 2019

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movielocke
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am

Re: Awards Season 2019

#451 Post by movielocke » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:30 pm

tenia wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:32 am
movielocke wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:30 am
I don’t think duverneys intent is to promote voter tokenism but to cause voters to recognize they are not even considering ANYONE outside the dominant caste groups, mostly because marginalization is in a feedback loop with invisibility.
Insisting on not being invisible isn’t the same as tokenism, but tokenism could be a typical response outcome by the dominant group to any activist pushing back against this feedback loop.
On the other hand, King explicited he can only nomimate for Best Picture, Best Adapted Screenplay, and Best Original Screenplay. Since we're talking of the pictures and the screenplays, wouldn't the best way to nominate those be by not even know it who are responsible for those, especially since these categories can be analysed this way ? While it's obviously complicated for some other categories who are directly nominating persons (director, acting), here, you can judge the result and not the artists behind it. Why then should people actively try precisely not to do that and go against the "blind test" ? Wouldn't that precisely be discrimination, even if it is a positive one ?

I understand movielocke's point about trying to go beyond the usual reflexes that are marginilising people into invisibility, but I still believe there are cases where going "blind" with the nominations might actually be the fairest way to nominate. "I liked those 5 movies and want to nominate them, no matter who directed them".

Moreover, positive discrimination has its own limitations, especially sending the message that your work might not have been good enough on its own terms, but since you belong to a majority, here you go. Not only that, but it doesn't help that much on the longer term (and god knows we French have been championing positive discrimination for decades in our society and, well, it pretty much never worked).
Completely agree.

There is one thing to consider alongside this though, and that is the way that taking a heuristic approach like "blindness" can function to advantage and perpetuate a 'bad system' status quo because it becomes part of the feedback loop. In a sense, it belongs in the same family as whataboutism, or bothsideism and can be used to absolve the promoter of blindness of responsibility for their complicity within a system they claim to decry but are functionally reinforcing.

That is to say, neutrality in response to a bad system one claims to disapprove of usually just continues the bad system in perpetuity.

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#452 Post by DarkImbecile » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:38 pm

True, but who can argue that this has been the case for the Academy? They've made substantial efforts to grow their voting base and make it younger, more diverse, and more international over the last five years (including cycling out older voters who are no longer actively part of the industry). It was the largest and most diverse voting group in Academy history that made these nominations; maybe that's a sign that the effort needs to continue, but it's certainly not for lack of effort.

felipe
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#453 Post by felipe » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:58 pm

Much has been said - everywhere - about female representation in the Director category, but what do you guys think about female representation among Best Picture nominees? Out of 9 nominees, how many of those have a female lead? Or the year before? Usually we get 2 or 3 movies that even have a female lead character. Is it that, year after year, stories about women are just not good enough? Is it that voters are biased? Or is it simply that movies about male characters are usually better and the nominees just represent that?

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movielocke
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#454 Post by movielocke » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:44 pm

it is in an industry that skews heavily male in all areas of filmmaking, and a critical industry that skews heavily male as well. So it isn't surprising that both the films awarded by the industry and awarded by the critics tend to reflect this genital inequity... err... reflect this general inequity.

And the scale of the gender inequity is especially true of the 1960s-1990s, as women's participation in the industry was at its nadir then, iirc.

And since nominating and pariticipating in awards nominating skews heavily to the elderly and retired, there's a long built in lag from the decades of extremely low female participation in the industry in what the awards from the industry will reflect.

if the academy was 99% male in the directors branch in the 60s-90s, then the retired directors that comprise the VAST VAST majority of the academy members that submit a nomination ballot are also 99% male right now, even if the directors branch is 10-20% less male than it was ten years ago, that change isn't going to hold true for the nomination process.

Additionally, women are not monolithic nor will they be expected to support women filmmakers en masse, nor should we even expect them to value anything different (en masse) than the status quo values we would expect from any director regardless of gender. most/all women directors value the same things in awarding a film that male directors do, and probably discount the same things that male directors discount.

while voters might be biased, it is more significant that the entire culture and society we share is much more heavily biased in terms of the values that are conferred or discounted at innumerable levels of the creation and reception of artwork.

felipe
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#455 Post by felipe » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:48 am

Very good points, movielocke.

Doesn't it seem though that nominees and winners have been getting more male? We had one BP winner with a female lead last decade, wan't it so? It used to be an average of 5 winners with a female lead per decade, but this number has been shrinking for the past two decades. Could there be an explanation for this?

Many people talked about the reasons why Roma lost BP. Black and white, foreign language, Netflix... I never saw someone mention its major setbacks, it's a story about women.

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movielocke
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#456 Post by movielocke » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:02 pm

The n is too small to draw any conclusions. Any pattern one appears to observe isn’t really there because the n is so small.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Awards Season 2019

#457 Post by Nasir007 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:08 pm

PGA award goes to 1917.

These are important in the sense they are the only industry award which exactly replicate the academy's best picture category - they go for more than 5 noms and more importantly use the instant runoff method for voting.

Since the change in 2019, they have missed the winner only twice - they went for Big Short and La La Land. But otherwise they have had it right.

I might think they got it wrong again this year. 1917 seems too basic a film to win best picture. But who knows, it is between that and the Tarantino and the Bong.

felipe
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#458 Post by felipe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:08 pm

movielocke wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:02 pm
The n is too small to draw any conclusions. Any pattern one appears to observe isn’t really there because the n is so small.
What is "n"? The number of examples?

felipe
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Awards Season 2019

#459 Post by felipe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:13 pm

Nasir007 wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:08 pm
I might think they got it wrong again this year. 1917 seems too basic a film to win best picture. But who knows, it is between that and the Tarantino and the Bong.
I believe BP is 1917's to lose. And it just might win director too.

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domino harvey
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#460 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:14 pm

It will for sure win Best Director— like, no question

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knives
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#461 Post by knives » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:45 pm

Yeah, it's quietly become a secure frontrunner ala The Shape of Water.

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domino harvey
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#462 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:47 pm

I think the best parallel is Million Dollar Baby-- a film from an Academy favorite that nevertheless was not really on anyone's radar until well into Awards season and then BOOM it's the frontrunner at the last minute

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Ribs
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#463 Post by Ribs » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:23 pm

And also the last time a BP winner came out in December. Not that I think this is totally locked down anyway (and would seem bad for Telluride, which will have went from ten years in a row of featuring the winner to two years off)

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#464 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:42 pm

I’m not trying to be obnoxious but I liked Green Book more than 1917 which leaves a different kind of sickness in my stomach so this awards season has quickly turned from one of the most optimistic to pessimistic and I hope you’re all wrong (not that I think (m)any of you hope you’re right)

Nasir007
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#465 Post by Nasir007 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:15 pm

1917 is definitely a contender but what gives me pause is that it does not have the actor's support which is the biggest branch of the academy. And in an instant runoff vote, it can become a numbers game. If you don't have the actors, you might not be able to get over the 50% mark even with 2nd or 3rd or 4th place votes.

The last film to win Best Picture without an acting nomination was Slumdog 10 years ago. And it was the last film in the old format. But from 2009 onwards, we are in the instant runoff format.

On paper the Tarantino might make the most sense as it might unite multiple constituents in various branches. Parasite has the "lack of acting nominations" knock against it too but I think the acting there is generally admired but there are so many good performances that support couldn't coalesce around a single one. I mean Manhola Dargis for her own Oscar ballot if she had one, picked 4 actresses from Parasite for the supporting actress category and AO Scott picked 3. It has 5 good strong roles for females and the ensemble is excellent across the board. So maybe the actors might support it too. It did receive a rather surprising and in some way unprecedented SAG nomination.

But 1917 is definitely one of the favorites.

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movielocke
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#466 Post by movielocke » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:32 pm

Contra 1917, Parasite and Jojo rabbit won the ACE dramatic and comedy awards Friday night. So while it’s almost a sure thing this is a 1917 year Parasite now has a precursor to make it a dark horse.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#467 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm

I still think Once Upon a Time... in Hollywood will win BP

Jack Kubrick
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#468 Post by Jack Kubrick » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:12 pm

Parasite won Best Motion Picture Cast, which means this race is too early to declare 1917 the frontrunner.

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movielocke
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#469 Post by movielocke » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:27 pm

Jack Kubrick wrote:Parasite won Best Motion Picture Cast, which means this race is too early to declare 1917 the frontrunner.
Indeed, and while 1917 is a classic academy kind of movie, the same academy just recently awarded an extremely low budget independent film that is both queer and black (and given the academy’s noted history of racism and homophobia it is still a double whammy shock that moonlight won), which if it hadn’t happened I would never believe would be possible now nor twenty years from now.

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domino harvey
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#470 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:36 pm

Note that 1917 wasn’t nominated for the SAG award in the first place, so no sea change can be read no matter who won. But very impressive nonetheless and if Parasite can overcome the hurdle of voters thinking they’re already rewarding it in FLF, maybe— it’s always been a Top 3 pick, and more than anything this win shows Once Upon a Time... is less likely to walk away with the top prize

Jack Kubrick
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#471 Post by Jack Kubrick » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:55 pm

movielocke wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:27 pm
Jack Kubrick wrote:Parasite won Best Motion Picture Cast, which means this race is too early to declare 1917 the frontrunner.
Indeed, and while 1917 is a classic academy kind of movie, the same academy just recently awarded an extremely low budget independent film that is both queer and black (and given the academy’s noted history of racism and homophobia it is still a double whammy shock that moonlight won), which if it hadn’t happened I would never believe would be possible now nor twenty years from now.
Yeah, 1917 is a generally modest type of Best Picture winner, it doesn't really have the passion that could steer Parasite to a upset victory. It's important to remember the actors branch is the largest in the Academy, and while it didn't gained any acting nominations this win does show a solidarity within that community for the film artistic and entertainment value. There is the new Academy voters who came in after #OscarsSoWhite who are eagerly to embrace a foreign-language film with POC made outside the Hollywood system.

Nasir007
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#472 Post by Nasir007 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:19 am

Color me shocked it won best cast. This is a heavy defeat for Once Upon a Time.

The 6 major industry awards are - PGA, DGA, SAG, WGA, ACE and Baftas.

PGA - 1917
DGA - 1917 (?)
SAG - Parasite
WGA - Marriage Story/Little Women (?) (Once upon a time was not eligible here)
ACA - Parasite/Jojo
Baftas - 1917 (?)

Once Upon a time would head into the Oscars without winning a top industry award - a sign of weakness perhaps. But it makes so much sense as a best picture winner even though I don't like it all that much.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#473 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:27 am

It does and it doesn’t make sense as one. For all the boxes the Tarantino checks (i.e. a narrative about the Hollywood Movie Industry) for BP it’s still a very offbeat and loose film to choose and would be a bolder pick than many give it credit for- more than any other nominee I think and aside from Birdman I can’t point to a weirder winner during my lifetime, though I can think of a few a case could certainly be made for.

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domino harvey
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#474 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:11 pm

Because we really wanted to dredge this up again... an insider on AW said the French Foreign Language Film submission vote was 5 to 4 (v Portrait) and aided by Amazon literally bringing in the creative team to plead their case with the French committee. So, it was close, DarkImbecile

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Awards Season 2019

#475 Post by DarkImbecile » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:21 pm

C'est la vie

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