Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

Discussions of specific films and franchises.
Message
Author
User avatar
McNulty
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:51 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#51 Post by McNulty » Mon May 27, 2019 2:16 am

domino harvey wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:10 am
Have I missed this being anything but an unattributed claim? As is, this is just unsubstantiated gossip
Thus far, yes. Also, it should be noted to some degree of relevance that the two actors in question in the bathroom scene are a couple. Not sure any reviews or articles have even mentioned that.

As far as the two actors abandoning the screening, that might be true. However, if you watch the Red Carpet premiere through to the entrance of the Lumiere, it appears they never entered the theater. I sat a few rows behind the cast and didn’t see those two actually sit or enter with the rest of the cast.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#52 Post by Nasir007 » Mon May 27, 2019 3:12 am

domino harvey wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:10 am
Have I missed this being anything but an unattributed claim? As is, this is just unsubstantiated gossip
tenia wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:51 am
Though it fits many descriptions of Kechiche's ways of working, it currently remains so far a testimony to be taken, indeed, with a pinch of salt.
McNulty wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:16 am
domino harvey wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:10 am
Have I missed this being anything but an unattributed claim? As is, this is just unsubstantiated gossip
Thus far, yes. Also, it should be noted to some degree of relevance that the two actors in question in the bathroom scene are a couple. Not sure any reviews or articles have even mentioned that.
Per current journalistic standards in the United States, even if is unsubstantiated gossip or testimony, it would be enough to destroy him - at least in the United States. You already saw that in how the American critics responded to this film. They went in with their knives sharpened. Even if Kechiche had delivered a really great movie, they would have killed it. They kind of went in with their minds made up. Had Blue Is The Warmest Color been released this year, it would not have had a similar level of acclaim as it got in 2013. Even in the past 6 years, the world has changed as to what will people tolerate.

And to be fair to the American critics, judging from their reactions, Kechiche did seem to confirm the worst of their fears.
McNulty wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:16 am
As far as the two actors abandoning the screening, that might be true. However, if you watch the Red Carpet premiere through to the entrance of the Lumiere, it appears they never entered the theater. I sat a few rows behind the cast and didn’t see those two actually sit or enter with the rest of the cast.
How wonderful to have someone here who actually saw the film! The rest of us are going just by hearsay and second hand accounts. Do you mind sharing a few thoughts on the film? Both on its artistic merit and achievement and the charges of exploitation leveled against Kechiche.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#53 Post by tenia » Mon May 27, 2019 7:45 am

In Kechiche's case, remember that such a testimony, even if anonymous, perfectly fits the descriptions done by Seydoux and Exarchopoulos for Blue's shooting. It makes it thus easy to imagine a pattern and the new testimony would bias-confirm that.

moreorless
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:34 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#54 Post by moreorless » Mon May 27, 2019 3:57 pm

furbicide wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:33 am
I'm a huge believer in separating the art from the artist and totally oppose attempts to end, say, Woody Allen and Roman Polanski's careers, but if these reports are true then I think it's kind of fair enough if Kechiche doesn't get to finish his trilogy. One crucial aspect of considering the personal virtue of the artist (IMO none of our business) separately from their work is that artists actually should be accountable for how they handle the production of that work, and if Kechiche has done something so ethically indefensible then he's totally betrayed the trust of the actors who put their faith in him. That's the kind of #MeToo stuff that should end careers.
There would be limits to my acceptance of that separation, in Allen's case for example I think the claims of child abuse are at least highly debatable and the marriage of his partners step daughter if oddball(as his and farrows lives seem to be generally) by conventional standards wasn't automatically abusive. I'd agree though onset abuse would be harder to separate although equally directors putting cast and crew though the mill does seem to be something that's often not been considered to be a big negative, I mean at the extreme end you have something like Stalker being filmed in a polluted environment potentially leading to multiple deaths.

Really though its something I think should be largely independent of the content of films unless that content is so extreme its obviously abusive, certain content could make abuse more likely but you can't really judge whether any abuse has happened purely by whats on screen. Its definitely true he has a reputation for pushing his actors hard that came out in the feuding with Seydoux after BITWC's release but I don't remember any inference by her there that he pressured them into sex scenes in that fashion, surely that would have come out then as he obviously didn't have any Weinstein like ability to keep her quiet? Could be that success has gone to his head and pushed him over the line but equally its hard to view this kind of report as a proof of guilt, especially given the environment were in at the moment.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#55 Post by Nasir007 » Mon May 27, 2019 4:17 pm

There were definitely reports from BITWC set that Kechiche was extremely controlling. That, he shot scenes over and over and over again. Like the scene when they first walk past each other on the street was filmed over 100 times. The actors were tired and he did not give them breaks. He once allegedly forbade Adele from visiting her boyfriend over the weekend or something. In of the scenes when they are crying and making out, he told them to lick each other's snot. There were also reports that he violated union rules by working very long hours and what not. So there were indeed a lot of reports from the set of BITWC but I don't know how many were confirmed.

But to address the larger point, the problem I have with social justice is its dispiritingly arbitrary nature. Some people get punished, others don't. And often, the distinction capriciously lies with who has clout, who is well-liked and what not. There isn't equal justice for all. Hitchcock apparently indulged in behavior on set with his actresses that would be categorized as psychological abuse. Do we give him a free pass? Bunuel apparently did not treat actresses well. Kubrick was obsessive and controlling. Should we destroy their legacies too?

It often boils down to the lack of a uniform standard that can be consistently and fairly applied to everyone. So that someone isn't penalized for something that another person gets a pass for. Social justice that is arbitrary is not justice.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#56 Post by MichaelB » Mon May 27, 2019 4:24 pm

knives wrote:Frankly I'd take Brass over a lot of the more respectable filmmakers.
My wife is a big Tinto Brass fan because there’s absolutely no pretension there: he knows exactly what his audience has come to see and is happy to deliver it.

And he also makes sex comedies that are both sexy and funny, which is a surprisingly tough combo to bring off - you have only to watch pretty much any random 1970s British example to see abject failure on both counts.

User avatar
dda1996a
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:14 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#57 Post by dda1996a » Mon May 27, 2019 4:47 pm

Move this to the appropriate Thread, but what Brass films would you recommend?

moreorless
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:34 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#58 Post by moreorless » Mon May 27, 2019 6:12 pm

Nasir007 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:17 pm
There were definitely reports from BITWC set that Kechiche was extremely controlling. That, he shot scenes over and over and over again. Like the scene when they first walk past each other on the street was filmed over 100 times. The actors were tired and he did not give them breaks. He once allegedly forbade Adele from visiting her boyfriend over the weekend or something. In of the scenes when they are crying and making out, he told them to lick each other's snot. There were also reports that he violated union rules by working very long hours and what not. So there were indeed a lot of reports from the set of BITWC but I don't know how many were confirmed.
I remember a mention of Exarchopoulos cutting herself filming the breakup scene and being asked to do more takes but I don't remember any claims he unduly forced them into sex scenes they weren't willing to do although a lot of reports did look to conflate the two. That seems to be what this recent story is inferring took place on his latest film but I'd say that's really a judgement that should be independent of the content of that film.
But to address the larger point, the problem I have with social justice is its dispiritingly arbitrary nature. Some people get punished, others don't. And often, the distinction capriciously lies with who has clout, who is well-liked and what not. There isn't equal justice for all. Hitchcock apparently indulged in behavior on set with his actresses that would be categorized as psychological abuse. Do we give him a free pass? Bunuel apparently did not treat actresses well. Kubrick was obsessive and controlling. Should we destroy their legacies too?

It often boils down to the lack of a uniform standard that can be consistently and fairly applied to everyone. So that someone isn't penalized for something that another person gets a pass for. Social justice that is arbitrary is not justice.
Yes I wouldn't disagree with that, standards, accusations, judgements and justice seems to be tied to the wims of the media, politicans and the net. I mean I'm not going to disbelieve accusations against a man just because I think he makes good cinema but equally I think there is an environment at the moment were he seems like an obvious target. Again I wonder whether part of that is linked to his politics, a rejection of "identity politics" as the issue of paramount importance in favour of a focus on class is not something that I think goes down well with many in an era were social liberalism does not always go hand in hand with left wing politics. Again that doesn't mean he's innocent but before the recent accusations it seemed like the reaction against him was stronger than for the makers of other sexually graphic cinema.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#59 Post by knives » Mon May 27, 2019 7:14 pm

dda1996a wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:47 pm
Move this to the appropriate Thread, but what Brass films would you recommend?
It's not a comedy, but his biggest film stateside has to be Salon Kitty which is a good starting point. Michael will probably be able to give more thorough an accounting though.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#60 Post by Nasir007 » Mon May 27, 2019 7:19 pm

Yeah I wonder if Martin Scorsese and Dicaprio get a free pass for showing so many women doing absolutely gratuitous full frontal nudity in Wolf Of Wall Street or showing so much misogyny and abuse against women as to blur the lines of whether they were condemning it or enjoying it. But they are Martin Scorsese and Dicaprio, so they would get a pass, again demonstrating the arbitrary nature of social justice. There are and will be winners and losers in this culture war.

All in all to say that for a lot of the reasons above - genuine sensuality or sexuality is probably at and end on the big screen, at least in American cinema. You see little sex in mainstream adult American cinema. What sex there is on American television screens. It's not just worth it for many directors I feel to show sexuality on the big screen anymore. There will be questions of consent and coercion and the male gaze and abuse and what not. I think even Fellini would be destroyed today. In Amarcord he lingers over women's asses in close-up as they sit on bicycles and lingers over boobs as well.

User avatar
Big Ben
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
Location: Great Falls, Montana

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#61 Post by Big Ben » Mon May 27, 2019 8:47 pm

As I recall Margot Robbie insisted on her nude scene herself despite the fact Scorsese originally was going to do it with a bathrobe or something. She wanted it that way and he relented.

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#62 Post by Brian C » Mon May 27, 2019 10:09 pm

Well, the other thing is that no one is saying that nudity per se is exploitative. I’m not sure why Scorsese needs a “free pass”.

moreorless
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:34 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#63 Post by moreorless » Tue May 28, 2019 1:23 am

Brian C wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:09 pm
Well, the other thing is that no one is saying that nudity per se is exploitative. I’m not sure why Scorsese needs a “free pass”.
That really should be a totally different issue to whether exploitation took place during a production but it is obviously a part of whats being discussed here.

Besides the fame of the director/stars the big divide for me seems to be how a film uses the sex/nudity it shows, if its used as some kind of marker for abuse and dysfunction within the story its more likely to be given a "free pass" were as someone like Kechiche often uses it as a positive. I do think that's suggestive of a more puritanical bent within our culture than is often admitted, that seeming acceptance of sex/nudity in art is often linked to it playing into a sex negative message even if that message is sometimes rather nominal and flimsy(a lot of earlier Game of Thrones for example).

Honestly I feel if your talking about a negative of not just film with aims at more than just eroticism but also pornography on society I think the biggest one is that it seems happy to play into the Christian culture of sex as a negative. The idea women involved are being degraded actually seems to become a turn on for people watching it(men who consume pornography having a very negative view of female performers within it seems very common at any rate) and viewed as the natural state, a justification for treating people badly yourself.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#64 Post by Nasir007 » Tue May 28, 2019 1:59 am

moreorless wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:23 am
Honestly I feel if your talking about a negative of not just film with aims at more than just eroticism but also pornography on society I think the biggest one is that it seems happy to play into the Christian culture of sex as a negative. The idea women involved are being degraded actually seems to become a turn on for people watching it(men who consume pornography having a very negative view of female performers within it seems very common at any rate) and viewed as the natural state, a justification for treating people badly yourself.
That's great insight. Anytime there is such a controversy, it is the women that are the victims. I am struck by this because of a piece Indiewire ran about other unsimulated sex scenes that caused a scandal at Cannes. One is The Brown Bunny where the lead actress is giving oral to a man and the other now is Mektoub where the lead actress is getting oral from a man. In both of the cases, the discussion (and by extension the criticism) has singularly and entirely focused on the woman. The man is not even remarked upon or mentioned. It again reinforces the view that seeing women perform these scenes rankles viewers.

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#65 Post by Gregory » Tue May 28, 2019 3:12 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:59 am
That's great insight. Anytime there is such a controversy, it is the women that are the victims. I am struck by this because of a piece Indiewire ran about other unsimulated sex scenes that caused a scandal at Cannes. One is The Brown Bunny where the lead actress is giving oral to a man and the other now is Mektoub where the lead actress is getting oral from a man. In both of the cases, the discussion (and by extension the criticism) has singularly and entirely focused on the woman. The man is not even remarked upon or mentioned. It again reinforces the view that seeing women perform these scenes rankles viewers.
Out of everything in this debate, you were struck by a clickbait piece with a slideshow of boring pics with space-filling summary text next to each image? There was no real discussion of anything, so of course there was no attempt at considering different perspectives in turn. But there's also no such portrayal of female victimhood that you attribute to this piece. For example in the brief discussion of The Brown Bunny, we get a tortured sentence that only really suggests that the film was controversial because Ebert called it the worst film in the history of Cannes. It doesn't comment on why he said that.

moreorless
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:34 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#66 Post by moreorless » Tue May 28, 2019 3:16 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 1:59 am
That's great insight. Anytime there is such a controversy, it is the women that are the victims. I am struck by this because of a piece Indiewire ran about other unsimulated sex scenes that caused a scandal at Cannes. One is The Brown Bunny where the lead actress is giving oral to a man and the other now is Mektoub where the lead actress is getting oral from a man. In both of the cases, the discussion (and by extension the criticism) has singularly and entirely focused on the woman. The man is not even remarked upon or mentioned. It again reinforces the view that seeing women perform these scenes rankles viewers.
Which does you could argue go back to the Catherine Deneuve situation, the idea that #metoo beyond its obviously credible stated aim has become linked to a media movement that was actually socially conservative, a shift towards a more negative view of sex as something that automatically exploits and belittles women. Again to me it seems like when you have a basic alignment between liberal and conservative ideologies that sex is degrading to women it becomes much easier for people who follow the latter to take a negative view and act in a negative way towards women in the belief this is the natural state of things.

Not that I wouldn't say theres a credible place for cinema that shows sex in a negative fashion, clearly there as there many situations where that's the case but it seems like its unduly dominant to me and much more easily accepted by the media/public(Shame, Nymphomaniac or Kechiche's own Black Venus) than something like BITWC that shows it mostly in a positive fashion. I mean it could be that the mans films are not reflective of his own morals, Polanski for example made films that obviously took a negative view of sexual abuse and Mizoguchi's personal life is sposed to have fallen rather short of the ideals of his films to the degree there viewed by some almost an apology but personally what I'v seen thus far hasnt seemed belittling of female characters, if anything you could argue the reverse that he seems to idealise women.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#67 Post by Nasir007 » Tue May 28, 2019 4:05 am

moreorless wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:16 am
Not that I wouldn't say theres a credible place for cinema that shows sex in a negative fashion, clearly there as there many situations where that's the case but it seems like its unduly dominant to me and much more easily accepted by the media/public(Shame, Nymphomaniac or Kechiche's own Black Venus) than something like BITWC that shows it mostly in a positive fashion.
I think you are on to something here. I think there aren't many positive or happy depictions of sex. Even desire for consummation, a perfectly positive reaction towards someone you love is played for laughs or as a bad character trait whereas it can just be an everyday character trait in a character. There aren't many happy scenes of two married or committed partners just happily indulging in sex. There has to be a tragic patina or something unsavory or some darkness cast over it in some ways. Gaspar Noe explicitly stated this as one of his reasons for making Love, essentially making the same argument, that there aren't many positive depictions of young people just being young and happy and making love. Rendering it as slightly ordinary and boring and commonplace reinforces its incredible naturalness as a positive act of shared mutual love and desire.

To bring it back to the current discussion, sex shown on screen stripped of context frustrates critics. Meaning it has to serve as a dark episode or a tragic catharsis or something of the sort. But stripped of that, just showing people alive and happy and having sex would seem questionable. And it is a valid concern - what does in fact deserve to be shown in a narrative? Rules of story-telling would posit that only moments and instances of inherent drama and tension that advance the narrative need be featured in a film or story.

But Kechiche is already seemingly challenging that narrative construction with Mektoub. He does not even essentially seem to be aiming for a 'story' or context as per the reports of the two Mektoub films. He seems content to just stage naturalistic tableaux of still-life's in motion with characters interacting and existing and being in a fictionally constructed frame and setting. He could even make pretensions of objectivity but for the fact that his camera while capturing the desires of his characters seemingly also captures his own. Baring unconfirmed reports of abuse, this mode of operation would leave the subjective judgement to each individual viewer as to not only their reading of the portrait of life presented on screen but also the manner in which it is presented.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#68 Post by tenia » Tue May 28, 2019 4:31 am

Blue has been very well received, at least in France, but I don't think it was different elsewhere. The controversy solely came from the reports over the conflicting shooting, followed by Seydoux and Exarchopoulos' statement they wouldn't work again with Kechiche if offered to, followed by Kechiche's statement the movie shouldn't be released anymore because it was soiled too much by all this talk.
In France, we've had a severe debate around same-sexe marriage that was supposed to be quick and smooth but that lasted forever (because we're stupid that way), and the movie's Palme d'Or happen to be right in the middle of that.

There were some concerned reports that the sex scenes, as discussed above, were reflecting of Kechiche's being a heterosexual man and showing this lesbian romance and sex purely from this point of view, but they were way less audible amongst the ton of praise the movie got.

I'm not saying the main point being made is wrong, but that Blue most certainly isn't really a good illustration, especially because the movie convoques other factors.

moreorless
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:34 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#69 Post by moreorless » Tue May 28, 2019 6:03 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:05 am
I think you are on to something here. I think there aren't many positive or happy depictions of sex. Even desire for consummation, a perfectly positive reaction towards someone you love is played for laughs or as a bad character trait whereas it can just be an everyday character trait in a character. There aren't many happy scenes of two married or committed partners just happily indulging in sex. There has to be a tragic patina or something unsavory or some darkness cast over it in some ways. Gaspar Noe explicitly stated this as one of his reasons for making Love, essentially making the same argument, that there aren't many positive depictions of young people just being young and happy and making love. Rendering it as slightly ordinary and boring and commonplace reinforces its incredible naturalness as a positive act of shared mutual love and desire.

To bring it back to the current discussion, sex shown on screen stripped of context frustrates critics. Meaning it has to serve as a dark episode or a tragic catharsis or something of the sort. But stripped of that, just showing people alive and happy and having sex would seem questionable. And it is a valid concern - what does in fact deserve to be shown in a narrative? Rules of story-telling would posit that only moments and instances of inherent drama and tension that advance the narrative need be featured in a film or story.

But Kechiche is already seemingly challenging that narrative construction with Mektoub. He does not even essentially seem to be aiming for a 'story' or context as per the reports of the two Mektoub films. He seems content to just stage naturalistic tableaux of still-life's in motion with characters interacting and existing and being in a fictionally constructed frame and setting. He could even make pretensions of objectivity but for the fact that his camera while capturing the desires of his characters seemingly also captures his own. Baring unconfirmed reports of abuse, this mode of operation would leave the subjective judgement to each individual viewer as to not only their reading of the portrait of life presented on screen but also the manner in which it is presented.
Honestly I do tend to think its revealing of a more puritanical attitude that exists even in areas of society that might be viewed as unprudish, that onscreen sex will be much more easily accepted if it can be cast in a negative fashion, the domain of abuse or mental illness.

In Blue there does seem a pretty clear narrative reason for its presence to me, the first half of the film is spent playing a characters suppressed emotion and sexuality together to the degree the sex is ment to be a catharsis for both of these, I mean a lack of dialog doesn't automatically infer a lack of emotional content as you can see elsewhere in the film where he spends a lot of time showing the characters emotional reaction without dialog. In the second half of the film were the plot shifts away from this we no longer see nearly as much such content.

I wouldn't say Mektoub is purely a tableaux, in the first half anywhere there is some narrative there mostly concerned with the(pretty clearly semi autobiographical) lead characters potential romance and his career direction but its gotten across in a very defuse fashion with a lot of scene setting involving other characters. There does seem to be a clear shift more towards valuing the style and scene setting over narrative to the degree I can imagine it not being of as much interest to people who don't enjoy that style.
tenia wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:31 am
Blue has been very well received, at least in France, but I don't think it was different elsewhere. The controversy solely came from the reports over the conflicting shooting, followed by Seydoux and Exarchopoulos' statement they wouldn't work again with Kechiche if offered to, followed by Kechiche's statement the movie shouldn't be released anymore because it was soiled too much by all this talk.
In France, we've had a severe debate around same-sexe marriage that was supposed to be quick and smooth but that lasted forever (because we're stupid that way), and the movie's Palme d'Or happen to be right in the middle of that.

There were some concerned reports that the sex scenes, as discussed above, were reflecting of Kechiche's being a heterosexual man and showing this lesbian romance and sex purely from this point of view, but they were way less audible amongst the ton of praise the movie got.

I'm not saying the main point being made is wrong, but that Blue most certainly isn't really a good illustration, especially because the movie convoques other factors.
It was initially well received but I would argue there was quite quickly a backlash that was what really drove the publicity of the fued, there seemed to be a strong desire to paint the sex within the film as a product of onset abuse. Again I don't remember any claims that this was the case with the stories relating to other aspects of the production, if it was I'd have thought it would have come out at that point. Doesn't mean he might not moved towards more abusive ways of filming such content I spose but again the desire for this to be the case in the media makes me wary of judging this to be the case based on quite unsubstantiated stories.

Honestly as a heterosexual man I have no experience of the reality of lesbian sex but the idea of any kind of "standard" sexual behaviour for an entire population seems like questionable anyway regardless of sexual persuasion, I could imagine for example if he'd shown some kind of penatrive sex he'd have been accused of looking to bringing a heterosexual viewpoint to it as well, indeed I suspect he didn't for that very reason. Really though I tend to think that whole argument seems a bit shallow, surely the sexual mechanics involved is of secondary importance to the intended dramatic effect? Showing that a lesbian/bisexual woman has a strong physical attraction to another woman doesn't really seem like a "male" viewpoint to me.

Again though I tend to think besides the sex itself politics came into play with a lot of the reaction. You have a film that on the face of it you'd expect to be concerned with lesbian/queer issues in which the character in the closet is enlightened by the openly lesbian character, instead you get a film that's more concerned with class and the lesbian character is painted in a less perfect fashion(although I think still a respectful and human one compared to a lot of depictions of lesbians on film). I remember the author of the graphic novel claiming that he'd "hijacked" her story which to some extent is a reasonable claim(that Kechiche himself pretty much admitted) but I don't think that automatically makes it a negative one. I suspect a lot of defensive reaction kicked in at that point, would a film in which a lesbian character and liberal intelligentsia is shown in a more purely positive fashion have faced so much criticism about its sex? I don't think it would have personally.

You could maybe make some comment as well that the idea you need to have personal experience of race/gender/sexuality in order to portray it being so popular in the media is rather at odds with the position on class, someone from a well off middle class background portraying people from a working class background does not seem to be raised as a negative nearly as often.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#70 Post by tenia » Tue May 28, 2019 8:15 am

The original production reports came from workers belonging to an union that was in the middle of a branch renegociation. Most of the issues reported were unrelated to the sex scenes, ranging from a diva director ranting at people to obtain very specific accessories they couldn't find anywhere only for dismissing the accessories once they found them, to the report of Exarcharpolous being requested to keep doing additional takes after having cut herself.

Some medias and commentators (including the original book's writer) commented on the sex scenes just like we do here, and there was the then-ongoing social debates in France regarding same-sex marriage, but again, the claims within the industry were in their utmost majority unrelated to the sex scenes. In any case, these sex scenes discussions certainly caused no backlash. The French critics were very positive, and the movie managed to sell more than 1 million tickets here, something very rare in France for such an arthouse movie, and the movie often still is included within "best of 2010s" lists.
Maroh mostly complained about the sex scenes being too graphically porny, brutal and clinical but also found Kechiche's behavior with her being spiteful. She claimed he stopped talking to her as soon as she sold the rights to the book, that she wasn't invited at Cannes and that she hasn't been mentioned in the awards ceremony speeches.

The movie however has been mostly snubbed at the Césars (despite 8 noms, that year's main winner being Les garçons et Guillaume, à table!), but most certainly because of the unionists' lobbying.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#71 Post by Nasir007 » Tue May 28, 2019 8:56 am

It's fall from grace is curious and I am still not sure how much it is linked to Kechiche's recent troubles. In 2013 - it was the perfect storm. It below away critics both in France and the US. It was winning mainstream critics awards in the US and got lots of critics mentions everywhere. Now 6 years later, we see all these people doing best of decade lists and it seems to be MIA after being so beloved just a few years ago! What's happened.

I will add this - the sex scene in the movie is a bit off-putting. There is nothing else in the movie like it. The movie is actually a very naturalistic portrait of a love affair - beautiful and melancholy. It is actually enormously moving. And smack in the middle you have this extremely graphic scene. It is the one thing which I think makes the film a bit inaccessible and makes me hesitate to recommend to people. In a way, it was a breakthrough - lesbian passion hasn't been represented in a major motion picture quite this way, but it was also a wee bit overdone. My observations here aren't puranitical, just from a narrative point of view, it is something that could have been perhaps been slightly toned down.

But yeah, what happened to the movie. Will it make Best of Decade lists at the end of the year? Kechiche made the best of decade list for Cahiers for the 2009 list, so it will be interesting to see if they feature him again. They featured him in 2013 for Blue but ignored him in 2017/2018 for Mektoub. Let's see if Mektoub Intermezzo makes it in their 2019 list and if Blue makes it in their best of 2010s list.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#72 Post by tenia » Tue May 28, 2019 9:20 am

Blue is included in the Best of 21st Century lists from Les Inrocks, the BBC, Indiewire (though it's Best of 21st Century FRENCH movies), Timeout (Best French movies of all time).
Of course, we'll see in a couple of years once critics will do their full-decade line-ups, but so far, it doesn't seem that bad.
This being written, I'm not sure if that's any viable indicator. Tons of movies, including very good and acclaimed ones, fall from the buzz quickly. I was looking at Les cahiers du cinema yearly top, and within the 2013 one, half of the movies basically vanished from the general memory (and that's the case for many other of their tops).

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#73 Post by Nasir007 » Tue May 28, 2019 9:33 am

An impassioned defense of Mektoub Intermezzo and Kechiche is found here -
The look of Kechiche, passionate about these bodies and especially the buttocks of these actresses will make ink flow. His eyes are lustful, insistent but cinema is a "voyeur" art. You can not blame a director to watch what he wants. The viewer will judge the relevance of his look and appreciate it or not but judging the action of filming buttocks or cunnilingus as a crime is the utmost hypocrisy. Judging also the sexist film would be incomprehensible. Never have women been so beautiful under Kechiche's camera. They are objects of desires, yes, but they are also in control and enjoy a total freedom of their body. They are not enslaved by the masculine desire, they provoke it.
Clumsy google translation but there you have it - https://www.senscritique.com/film/Mekto ... /195447182

I think away from the negative English language press which is gave it 0% in Rotten tomatoes and 16 in Metacritic - ratings lower that garbage razzie winning trash from Hollywood, it is important to hear from alternative perspectives that found meaning in Mektoub Intermezzo and saw in it art and humanity.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#74 Post by tenia » Tue May 28, 2019 9:41 am

0% and 16 are definitely hyperbolic negative scores, but many who liked (including some who liked it A LOT) Canto Uno disliked Intermezzo, but I'd expect rather a 40-50 MC score, not 16.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Mektoub, My Love: Canto Uno & Intermezzo (Abdellatif Kechiche, 2017/2019)

#75 Post by Nasir007 » Tue May 28, 2019 9:49 am

I checked them again. RT now has it at 7% after adding Jordan Ruimy's sole positive review (he's been a champion since he saw it). Metacritic is now at 12 - a lower score than Catwoman and Gotti and the same score as the Emoji movie.

Post Reply