Nightwatching (Greenaway, 2007)
- Oedipax
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:48 am
- Location: Atlanta
Nightwatching (Greenaway, 2007)
Looks like there's a Russian DVD out now with your choice of the original English 5.1 audio or a Russian dub.
Does anyone know if that's a reliable e-tailer? If the Tulse Luper debacle was any indication, this might be the best shot most of us have at seeing the film anytime in the near future.
Does anyone know if that's a reliable e-tailer? If the Tulse Luper debacle was any indication, this might be the best shot most of us have at seeing the film anytime in the near future.
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
- The Fanciful Norwegian
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Teegeeack
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Review of the Russian disc at Mondo Digital. Looks good, removable subs and 2.35 ratio.
- tavernier
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:18 pm
Got this yesterday....popped it in to see the image and looks very good.Tommaso wrote:Review of the Russian disc at Mondo Digital. Looks good, removable subs and 2.35 ratio.
Even the digipak has a Greenawayish beauty to it.
-
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:31 am
- Contact:
In case you Greenaway fans are interested, his work 'A TV Dante' is now available as a worldwide download from Digital Classics.
If you want to see it on DVD, let us know at lw@digitalclassics.co.uk and if there is enough interest we will release it.
If you want to see it on DVD, let us know at lw@digitalclassics.co.uk and if there is enough interest we will release it.
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
I finally got around to see "Nightwatching", and have slightly mixed feelings about it. Although the film indeed seems to be much easier to approach than many of Greenaway's other works, it perhaps won't make the 'normal' audience nor the Greenaway fans entirely happy. The visuals are impressive as ever, but the storyline seems strangely unfocussed in places. Did he want to make a visual-conceit-film a la "Draughtsman" or a bio-pic? "Nightwatching" hovers somewhat uneasily between these extremes, and the problem is that for a bio-pic there is too little explanation of what is going on. You have to be already in the know about Rembrandt and his "Nightwatch"-painting to easily sort out all the characters and their significance, for example. Here the absence of PG's usual lists, on-screen commentaries etc. is actually making the film more difficult. I imagined how much clearer it would have been if each of the 18 characters on the painting had been introduced with a "Tulse Luper" style frame insert giving us their stories, motivations or sexual preferences. Perhaps an indication that PG simply isn't the greatest storyteller, and his decision to rely on such devices in earlier films was a clever way of holding his films together.
Anyway, though I would certainly call this a minor work in his oeuvre, it's still a very good film, and even as a bio-pic it works better than, say, Ruiz' "Klimt". But the 'return to form' that some reviewers saw here actually happened already with the Luper Trilogy, and these films are certainly much more exciting, funny and inventive than "Nightwatching". But perhaps for those who are not yet hooked on Greenaway, "Nightwatching" may be a good start. I only hope that when it comes out on disc in Europe, there will be some nice extras providing the context for the film.
Anyway, though I would certainly call this a minor work in his oeuvre, it's still a very good film, and even as a bio-pic it works better than, say, Ruiz' "Klimt". But the 'return to form' that some reviewers saw here actually happened already with the Luper Trilogy, and these films are certainly much more exciting, funny and inventive than "Nightwatching". But perhaps for those who are not yet hooked on Greenaway, "Nightwatching" may be a good start. I only hope that when it comes out on disc in Europe, there will be some nice extras providing the context for the film.
- John Cope
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:40 pm
- Location: where the simulacrum is true
I was going to post on this a couple weeks back when I finally got around to watching it as well but frankly couldn't be bothered. I think you're being generous to it, Tommaso. I agree that it's beautifully shot; in fact, I would argue that in terms of sheer aesthetics it ranks absolutely on par with anything else PG has ever done. However, that just ain't enough and the rest of the film is testament to that.
What does the movie in for me is its content which is stupefyingly boring and I would argue that is especially true if you do know anything at all about Rembrandt. Ultimately this is Greenaway's Da Vinci Code, which isn't that surprising given his predilection for analyzing and deconstructing systems. Unfortunately though this lends the whole piece a kind of CSI 17th Century Netherlands vibe and this does not benefit the material; it merely mires his aesthetic considerations in the minutiae of a grindingly mechanical, formula plot.
My boredom with it comes from that fact. Greenaway seems to think we should all be fascinated by his own supposed historical discoveries, but when they are translated into such familiar narrative terms I can't help but wonder why we should be. Beyond that there are numerous points when you get the sense that he expects us to react with shock at the bald hypocrisies of the aristocratic leadership; but this is elementary stuff for Greenaway, isn't it? I mean, his tone of removal and distance in something similar like Draughtsman's Contract was so much more effective and mature because it asserted a primacy of nihilistic indifference. I don't advocate that but it fits his philosophical bent far better than venturing into the shock and awe of over-extended melodrama. That approach simply emphasizes the shallowness of his thinking as the melodrama is never felt; it's never believed in. At best it's a depiction of an attitude by someone who does not share it. The horror of something like Baby of Macon (for me his best work by far) emerges because his aesthetic of removal is charted there to its absolute limits and reveals, ultimately, a very real and very felt, though consistently denied, human emotional response. The limits of nihilism reveal, in other words, their hidden sentimental origins. By contrast, Nightwatching is just a flat parody of an important subject; another of Greenaway's attempts to reassert distance and control through the enforced disconnection between himself and his subject matter. The Luper films did that through their emphasis on deconstruction and this does that through its assertion of the banality of motivation.
On the other thread for this someone mentioned that Freeman's performance acted as a kind of disruptive element; his naturalism contrasted to the highly stylized acting of everyone else. But his performance is equally stylized, just different, and finally acts to simplify the artist as complex human signifier. He emerges as just an uninspired and uninspiring analogy of difference within a more stolid community. That's not exactly provocative or insightful.
There are some good bits here and there when Greenaway decides to actually make purposive connections between the film's aesthetic and that of its ostensible subject; in other words when he bothers to observe the otherwise always implied associations between form and content. But the content is, overall as I said, just so tiresome and non-revelatory. The material dealing with Rembrandt's romantic travails and the death of certain loved ones never worked for me because Greenaway simply does not care about this stuff himself. I never once sensed that he doesn't view such stuff as little more than a distraction to his intentions. God knows he isn't a sentimentalist and I don't expect him to be so these beats felt almost perfunctory and obligatory to me as well. Still, if he's impatient to move on to bigger ambitions and larger themes he better be sure that they're actually as ambitious and as thematically rich as he presumes or else we're all shortchanged.
What does the movie in for me is its content which is stupefyingly boring and I would argue that is especially true if you do know anything at all about Rembrandt. Ultimately this is Greenaway's Da Vinci Code, which isn't that surprising given his predilection for analyzing and deconstructing systems. Unfortunately though this lends the whole piece a kind of CSI 17th Century Netherlands vibe and this does not benefit the material; it merely mires his aesthetic considerations in the minutiae of a grindingly mechanical, formula plot.
My boredom with it comes from that fact. Greenaway seems to think we should all be fascinated by his own supposed historical discoveries, but when they are translated into such familiar narrative terms I can't help but wonder why we should be. Beyond that there are numerous points when you get the sense that he expects us to react with shock at the bald hypocrisies of the aristocratic leadership; but this is elementary stuff for Greenaway, isn't it? I mean, his tone of removal and distance in something similar like Draughtsman's Contract was so much more effective and mature because it asserted a primacy of nihilistic indifference. I don't advocate that but it fits his philosophical bent far better than venturing into the shock and awe of over-extended melodrama. That approach simply emphasizes the shallowness of his thinking as the melodrama is never felt; it's never believed in. At best it's a depiction of an attitude by someone who does not share it. The horror of something like Baby of Macon (for me his best work by far) emerges because his aesthetic of removal is charted there to its absolute limits and reveals, ultimately, a very real and very felt, though consistently denied, human emotional response. The limits of nihilism reveal, in other words, their hidden sentimental origins. By contrast, Nightwatching is just a flat parody of an important subject; another of Greenaway's attempts to reassert distance and control through the enforced disconnection between himself and his subject matter. The Luper films did that through their emphasis on deconstruction and this does that through its assertion of the banality of motivation.
On the other thread for this someone mentioned that Freeman's performance acted as a kind of disruptive element; his naturalism contrasted to the highly stylized acting of everyone else. But his performance is equally stylized, just different, and finally acts to simplify the artist as complex human signifier. He emerges as just an uninspired and uninspiring analogy of difference within a more stolid community. That's not exactly provocative or insightful.
There are some good bits here and there when Greenaway decides to actually make purposive connections between the film's aesthetic and that of its ostensible subject; in other words when he bothers to observe the otherwise always implied associations between form and content. But the content is, overall as I said, just so tiresome and non-revelatory. The material dealing with Rembrandt's romantic travails and the death of certain loved ones never worked for me because Greenaway simply does not care about this stuff himself. I never once sensed that he doesn't view such stuff as little more than a distraction to his intentions. God knows he isn't a sentimentalist and I don't expect him to be so these beats felt almost perfunctory and obligatory to me as well. Still, if he's impatient to move on to bigger ambitions and larger themes he better be sure that they're actually as ambitious and as thematically rich as he presumes or else we're all shortchanged.
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Well, as an old PG fan I tend to be forgiving, perhaps too much so, but on the other hand you might be somewhat too hard on the film.John Cope wrote: I think you're being generous to it, Tommaso.
I actually agree with everything you say, though, it's just that I don't find it boring despite of its shortcomings. Perhaps I tend to be too captivated by the images themselves here (and in the absence of a watchable disc of "Macon" it was actually nice to see something somewhat similar again in good image quality).
Yes, I only wonder why exactly the same strategy worked so well with "Draughtsman" and have no clue about any possible answer. Perhaps it's the completely unsophisticated way in which Rembrandt himself reveals the meanings he has laid into his painting, instead of Greenaway allowing us to find out about these ourselves. Again, I believe the main problem with the film is its unfocussed narrative; its way of never bothering the viewer with the actual process of painting the 'Nightwatch' and thus not allowing the audience to find out about its supposed hidden meaning. We get to see the painting when its finished, and then a somewhat out-of-the-hat explanation of the clues supposedly to be found in there.John Cope wrote: Unfortunately though this lends the whole piece a kind of CSI 17th Century Netherlands vibe and this does not benefit the material; it merely mires his aesthetic considerations in the minutiae of a grindingly mechanical, formula plot.
Absolutely.And it doesn't need a Greenaway film for us to guess that 17th century Dutch society was every way as corrupt and perverted as any other since then. If he really expected to shock anyone by revealing that there were secret child brothels, he must have been out of his mind. I'm not really sure that this was intention, though (I wonder what WAS the intention of the film, in any case). Curiously, I found the bits with the child on the roof and the story of her sister strangely touching and one of the stronger bits of the film. Surely not his usual ice-cold distance there, but still removed from melodrama in my view. It seems to have worked better for me than for you, while I still agree with what you say about nihilism/distance and PG not normally caring for emotional aspects etc.John Cope wrote:. Beyond that there are numerous points when you get the sense that he expects us to react with shock at the bald hypocrisies of the aristocratic leadership; but this is elementary stuff for Greenaway, isn't it?
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
"Nightwatching" is also now coming out on a French disc, under the title "La ronde de nuit". It is available on its own or as a part of a new four-disc Greenaway set. The good thing about the set is that it also has a film called "J'accuse", which I couldn't make heads nor tails of before doing a quick google search. Apparently it is an 80-minute documentary/video piece by Greenaway that further investigates the supposed Nightwatch murder mystery. And now for the bad news: "J'accuse" seems only to be available in this set, NOT on the individual "Nightwatching" disc; which means that Greenaway fans will have to buy "Architect" and "Cook" again (would be the third time for the latter film if one counts the forthcoming CC...).
I REALLY hate such company policies. Well, I think I'll wait for the specs of the forthcoming Dutch disc of "Nightwatching" (set for January 2009 now) ; I have little hope that it will include "J'accuse", but who knows....
I REALLY hate such company policies. Well, I think I'll wait for the specs of the forthcoming Dutch disc of "Nightwatching" (set for January 2009 now) ; I have little hope that it will include "J'accuse", but who knows....
- Gropius
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:47 pm
So I finally made it to a screening of this in the UK, which seems to be the last place on the planet to pick up new Greenaway films these days. I broadly agree with John Cope's critique above. This seems like a backward step, repeating the plot of Draughtsman's Contract 25 years on with less subtlety. Even the music is now a sub-pastiche of Michael Nyman's own Baroque pastiches. Freeman's performance was more impressive than I was expecting, but structurally the film meandered.
Greenaway himself was present to talk afterwards (as part of some minor film festival, not the LFF), and his words were revealing, more for what he didn't say. Basically, he recited his usual speech about the death of cinema, the tyranny of the rectangular frame, potential of new technologies, etc. etc., with little reference to Nightwatching in particular. It was almost as if he produced the film to order, without any great attachment to it as an end product.
There were references to trying to recreate the lighting of Rembrandt's paintings, but then he'd already done this decades ago in the Vierny era with Zed & Two Noughts/ Vermeer. He even seemed to joke about becoming a parody of himself, mentioning that crew members say "You can't do that, it's not a 'Greenaway' shot".
He also mentioned plans for another film about an earlier Dutch artist (name escapes me) who produced erotic prints. I can't imagine it will be very different from Nightwatching, probably recycling the same costumes and semi-populist narrative style, without reviving the promising technical experiments of Prospero's Books and Tulse Luper. Obviously I'd like to be proved wrong on that, but I get the feeling he or his backers were economically stung by the presumably total commercial failure of the Luper series, and that this has led to a retreat into 'easier' projects.
Greenaway himself was present to talk afterwards (as part of some minor film festival, not the LFF), and his words were revealing, more for what he didn't say. Basically, he recited his usual speech about the death of cinema, the tyranny of the rectangular frame, potential of new technologies, etc. etc., with little reference to Nightwatching in particular. It was almost as if he produced the film to order, without any great attachment to it as an end product.
There were references to trying to recreate the lighting of Rembrandt's paintings, but then he'd already done this decades ago in the Vierny era with Zed & Two Noughts/ Vermeer. He even seemed to joke about becoming a parody of himself, mentioning that crew members say "You can't do that, it's not a 'Greenaway' shot".
He also mentioned plans for another film about an earlier Dutch artist (name escapes me) who produced erotic prints. I can't imagine it will be very different from Nightwatching, probably recycling the same costumes and semi-populist narrative style, without reviving the promising technical experiments of Prospero's Books and Tulse Luper. Obviously I'd like to be proved wrong on that, but I get the feeling he or his backers were economically stung by the presumably total commercial failure of the Luper series, and that this has led to a retreat into 'easier' projects.
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Correction to my post above: the new French individual release of "Nightwatching" actually IS a double-disc-set and it DOES contain the "J'accuse" piece, even though alapage and amazon list it as a one-discer. Now I only have to find out whether the subs are removable...
However, my complaint about company policies still stands, as the fourth disc in the box set is not the same as the bonus disc on the individual "Nightwatching" disc, but is exclusive to the box set and contains, apart from 66 min. of interviews with the actors, Greenaway's brilliant 1989 film "Death in the Seine".... Argh! I still have hopes that this will come as an extra on the forthcoming CC "Cook", though. Would fit perfectly there, thematically.
However, my complaint about company policies still stands, as the fourth disc in the box set is not the same as the bonus disc on the individual "Nightwatching" disc, but is exclusive to the box set and contains, apart from 66 min. of interviews with the actors, Greenaway's brilliant 1989 film "Death in the Seine".... Argh! I still have hopes that this will come as an extra on the forthcoming CC "Cook", though. Would fit perfectly there, thematically.
- The Fanciful Norwegian
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Teegeeack
Death in the Seine has actually been out in the U.S. for awhile via Films for the Humanities & Sciences. Unfortunately this is an educational distributor focusing on institutional sales, so it costs ninety bucks. Facets has a DVD for $30, which seems dubious...
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Re: Nightwatching (Greenaway, 2007)
And another correction (probably) about the French edition. I just received it from a French ebay seller, and although the cover talks about TWO discs, it only contains one (and no room for a second one, too). So either this was a promo item, or there are indeed two versions of it floating around which have the same cover, though. Thankfully the seller seems to be understanding and has agreed to take it back, but it's annoying nevertheless. So I still can't comment on the "J'accuse" documentary, which from what I hear is far better than the film itself.
But even if you manage to get hold of the two-disc version: the French subs on the film are NON-REMOVABLE if you choose the English language audio. They're not burnt in, it seems, but I'd still say: stick to the Russian disc, or better: wait for this to be released elsewhere. I only hope a UK or US edition will also contain the plenty of extras as the French 2-disc version apparently includes.
But even if you manage to get hold of the two-disc version: the French subs on the film are NON-REMOVABLE if you choose the English language audio. They're not burnt in, it seems, but I'd still say: stick to the Russian disc, or better: wait for this to be released elsewhere. I only hope a UK or US edition will also contain the plenty of extras as the French 2-disc version apparently includes.
- perkizitore
- Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:29 pm
- Location: OOP is the only answer
Re: Nightwatching (Greenaway, 2007)
You can buy the 2-disc US edition for 20$.
Last edited by perkizitore on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:39 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Nightwatching (Greenaway, 2007)
There has been a long pause in this thread. Of course, what else can be said after John Cope's critique? (No irony here.) Am I the only one who thinks that the accompanying "J'accuse" is better than "Nightwatching" itself? It is much more focused and perhaps even more "filmic", as opposed to the deliberate theatricality of the latter. I have always had an impression of Rembrandt being a kind of person that enjoys life, but despite of extremely emotionally charged topics, the whole "Nightwatching" is as cold as a dog's nose; even his relationship with Saskia or Hendrickje is not depicted convincingly in the film.
I do not believe that film is dead, but "Nightwatching" proves to me that Greenaway is doing all he can to kill it.
I do not believe that film is dead, but "Nightwatching" proves to me that Greenaway is doing all he can to kill it.