Blood and Black Lace

Discuss releases from Arrow and the films on them.

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tenia
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#26 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:04 pm

Surprisingly, this steelbook's J Card says that it contains the "reversible sleeve" which an obvious error in the description. It also doesn't have the usual "Limited Steelbook packaging" line so it looks like the regular release description has been used for the Steelbook J Card. Not a big mistake by any shot, but quite funny still.

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#27 Post by Koukol » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:50 pm

What happened? :cry:
Why is it cropped and more importantly...pink?
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=255677&page=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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MichaelB
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#28 Post by MichaelB » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:53 pm

Nothing happened. The film is framed exactly as Bava intended, as confirmed by Tim Lucas (who was a consultant on the framing and grading).

Arrow's restoration team had access to a scan of the entire camera negative area, and I can assure you that they knew what they were doing.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#29 Post by EddieLarkin » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:02 pm

There are explanations and theories in the very same thread. Framing aside, I'm perplexed anyone would criticise the colour on the transfer. It looks amazing.

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swo17
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#30 Post by swo17 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:04 pm

Also, the film has never even seen a passable release before, so who cares how it looks now compared to previous DVDs?

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Ashirg
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#31 Post by Ashirg » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:19 pm

I have all previous editions of the film (2 VCIs and German disc) and always noticed that there was something off in the framing of the opening credits in all three editions. Mary Arden's capture from new Arrow Films disc looks excellent, both in framing and clarity. I'm glad I switched my reward to UK release and can't wait to get it...

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jsteffe
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#32 Post by jsteffe » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:35 pm

Honestly, based on the stills the color grading looks marvelous--in no way too "pink." The color is vastly better balanced than the various old DVD versions. In fact it looks even better than I thought was possible for this film! I can't wait for it to arrive on my doorstep.

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#33 Post by Koukol » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:45 pm

jsteffe wrote:Honestly, based on the stills the color grading looks marvelous--in no way too "pink." The color is vastly better balanced than the various old DVD versions. In fact it looks even better than I thought was possible for this film! I can't wait for it to arrive on my doorstep.
Then it must be my laptop which I admit hasn't been calibrated like my TV.
However, I'm not alone in seeing the pink and not only pink flesh but an entire pink hue. (the candles turned pink)
I'll hang on as my copy should be here any day now.

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swo17
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#34 Post by swo17 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:49 pm

Yes, the pink candles look pink. Also, the white lamp looks white (unlike in the old DVD where it was a little purple).

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#35 Post by Koukol » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:59 pm

swo17 wrote:Yes, the pink candles look pink. Also, the white lamp looks white (unlike in the old DVD where it was a little purple).
You know for sure that those candles WERE pink?
I'm GUESSING they were orange as the skin tones look more natural on the DVD pic.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#36 Post by EddieLarkin » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:06 pm

But everything is orange in the DVD. The quill, the dress in the magazine below it... What do you think of the colour in this comparison? Are they natural skin tones too?

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#37 Post by Koukol » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:14 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:But everything is orange in the DVD. The quill, the dress in the magazine below it... What do you think of the colour in this comparison? Are they natural skin tones too?
OK...the DVD looks horrible in that pic. Again, i shouldn't have jumped to conclusions until i see it on my THX certified calibrated Plasma.

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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#38 Post by David M. » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:45 pm

Koukol wrote:What happened? :cry:
Why is it cropped and more importantly...pink?
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=255677&page=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, I'm not alone in seeing the pink and not only pink flesh but an entire pink hue. (the candles turned pink)
One reason is that the screen grab you linked to was decoded into RGB using the incorrect Rec.601 color matrix (which should only be used for standard def video, a lot of software incorrectly uses it to decode HD).

A lot of screen grabs online have this problem. Almost no name-brand TVs or BD players do. (Although unless your TV has been calibrated or has a decent preset mode like a THX one, your TV will introduce far worse color errors than this).

601/709 mismatches are most noticeable in strong reds.

Image

There is some blue in her skin tone, but decoded wrong it does look off-kilter purple.

Obviously that's subtle compared to the difference between the new grade and the old DVD, but as people have pointed out, the old DVD shouldn't be considered definitive.

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MichaelB
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#39 Post by MichaelB » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:01 pm

I've just watched the shot under discussion in motion, and what immediately struck me about it is that orange candles simply wouldn't work within what looks like a very carefully devised colour scheme.

Consider: we start with pink lipstick (much more apparent at full HD than in this reduction)...

Image

...then pan past a flower arrangement where pinks and reds predominate...

Image

...and another...

Image

...and the reddish-pink mannequin...

Image

...then the pink candles (and note another red and pink floral arrangement behind the lamp)...

Image

...and finally the pink motif on the cups and saucers, revealed after the magazine (dominated by photographs of red and pink clothing) has been closed.

Image

Does anyone seriously doubt after all that that Bava intended the candles to be pink? Orange would be garishly distracting.

Indeed, just look at how carefully the colours are controlled in that final grab: red, pink, brown and pale blue - and very little else. And virtually all the objects on the table are either red or pink.

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Ashirg
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#40 Post by Ashirg » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:19 pm

On DVD, they were not candles - they were strategically placed carrots!!!

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#41 Post by Koukol » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:22 pm

It MUST be my laptop as when I lift my hand to the screen it looks more orange than the BD screen caps given.
I TRULY hope it's the PC as I'm one of Bava's biggest fans and only want the best for his work.

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MichaelB
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#42 Post by MichaelB » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:50 am

Koukol wrote:It MUST be my laptop as when I lift my hand to the screen it looks more orange than the BD screen caps given.
I TRULY hope it's the PC as I'm one of Bava's biggest fans and only want the best for his work.
Which is easier to believe: that your PC isn't displaying the right colours, or that a combo of James White, Tim Lucas, the Deluxe restoration team and the Cineteca di Bologna - all of whom were determined to do this film full justice - somehow collectively got it wrong, and that none of them noticed despite ample opportunities along the way?

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Banasa
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#43 Post by Banasa » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:19 am

I'm more surprised that people are second guessing the colours based on...what exactly? Old DVDs released by a company with a mixed reputation? Or that someone who was a stylist as muvh as Bava would have screens coloured in such a way.

As for the framing, I'm surprised when people automatically assume that seeing more is better.some television releases that are formatted wrong would show crew or film equipment on the side if released with an incorrect aspect ratio.

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MichaelB
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#44 Post by MichaelB » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:48 am

Banasa wrote:I'm more surprised that people are second guessing the colours based on...what exactly? Old DVDs released by a company with a mixed reputation? Or that someone who was a stylist as muvh as Bava would have screens coloured in such a way.
If you watch individual shots in motion, it becomes all too clear just what a meticulous stylist Bava was. Those examples of recurring (and clearly deliberate) pinks and reds that I screengrabbed above being a case in point - and there are loads of equivalents elsewhere.
As for the framing, I'm surprised when people automatically assume that seeing more is better.some television releases that are formatted wrong would show crew or film equipment on the side if released with an incorrect aspect ratio.
A major problem in situations like this is that people pick up somewhere that the aspect ratio should be such-and-such and become convinced that this is correct, and that anything in a different ratio is therefore "wrong".

In the case of both The Night of the Hunter and The Long Good Friday, I did at least listen to the people who urged me to frame the former at 1.85:1 and the latter at 1.66:1 - but in both cases I concluded that they were wrong. Contemporary evidence suggests that The Night of the Hunter would have been screened at a variety of aspect ratios including 1.66:1, 1.75:1 and 1.85:1, as this was a time when definitions of "widescreen" (or at least non-Scope widescreen) were somewhat fluid, but close examination of the actual film reveals that in practically every case 1.66:1 looked better and 1.85:1 was too tight. We even consulted restorer Robert Gitt, who knows the footage better than anyone, and he was adamant: 1.66:1 ideally, 1.75:1 at a push, but preferably not 1.85:1. So 1.66:1 it was - a decision also reached by Criterion on their version.

In the case of The Long Good Friday we simply asked the man who shot it in the first place, and cinematographer Phil Meheux couldn't have been more adamant that 1.85:1 was the intended ratio. I suspect the issue here is that because the film had been shot in open-matte 4:3 and protected for that ratio (given the constant threat throughout production that it would go straight to TV), it looks surprisingly acceptable like that - and if you crop it to 1.85:1, you "lose lots of picture". But this loss came entirely with the cinematographer's blessing: for some reason no previous video label (including Criterion) had seen fit to consult him, hence the plethora of aspect ratios from 4:3 to 1.66:1 to 1.78:1 that it's enjoyed in the past. But what's the betting that someone will ignore the "cinematographer approved" label and complain that "the Arrow version is heavily cropped"?

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#45 Post by EddieLarkin » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:11 am

MichaelB wrote:In the case of both The Night of the Hunter and The Long Good Friday, I did at least listen to the people who urged me to frame the former at 1.85:1 and the latter at 1.66:1 - but in both cases I concluded that they were wrong. Contemporary evidence suggests that The Night of the Hunter would have been screened at a variety of aspect ratios including 1.66:1, 1.75:1 and 1.85:1, as this was a time when definitions of "widescreen" (or at least non-Scope widescreen) were somewhat fluid, but close examination of the actual film reveals that in practically every case 1.66:1 looked better and 1.85:1 was too tight. We even consulted restorer Robert Gitt, who knows the footage better than anyone, and he was adamant: 1.66:1 ideally, 1.75:1 at a push, but preferably not 1.85:1. So 1.66:1 it was - a decision also reached by Criterion on their version.
Whilst undoubtedly it is the case that TNotH was screened at a variety of ARs, the contemporary evidence is clear that projectionists were instructed to run it at 1.85:1. And though I absolutely agree that the Arrow Blu-ray is too tight at such a ratio, that says nothing about the actual film. You can see here that the framing on the master that Arrow used is different, often vastly so compared to the Criterion. Indeed, if one were to crop the 1.66:1 Criterion to say, 1.78:1, during much of the film you'd end up with the same top line as the 1.66:1 Arrow version. That doesn't prove what the intended ratio is, but it does indicate that neither of these 1.66:1 masters can be used to theorise on the AR. Why exactly there are two such differently framed masters of the same restoration I'm not really sure, but since both gain and lose information over the other depending on the shot, it may be the case that actual film elements had a lot more room to play with than anyone realises (and that consequently, a 1.85:1 matte would not leave the film looking too tight).

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MichaelB
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#46 Post by MichaelB » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:39 am

I experimentally cropped a full-frame image to 1.85:1. Trust me: it was too tight.

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#47 Post by Koukol » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:57 pm

Banasa wrote:I'm more surprised that people are second guessing the colours based on...what exactly? Old DVDs released by a company with a mixed reputation?
I don't understand this criticism.
I only pointed out that the DVD cap looks closer to proper skin tones ON MY LAPTOP.
If the DVD cap wasn't there the BD caps STILL look too pink!
You guys are obviously not seeing what I'm seeing as not only the screen-caps look too pink but also a little drained of color and
Bava's films are rich with colors.
I'm familiar with Bava's work too (although I'm no expert) and was one of the first to cry out about Kino's Blue Meanie of WHIP which, as far as I know, Tim hasn't commented negatively on. Anyways, I have my apology ready when I hope to be proved wrong as I know my criticisms along with others can effect sales and I know people worked hard on these releases. I already feel bad for spreading this as I highly suspect it's my PC now.

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MichaelB
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#48 Post by MichaelB » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:07 pm

This is why it's very very unwise to sound off about transfers that you haven't seen, especially in the presence of people who have.

And judging the colours from other people's screencaps (i.e. where you have no idea of the methodology and have nothing to reliably compare them with) is even more of a minefield. By definition it's second-guessing.

Put it like this, nobody who's seen the actual transfer has claimed that it's "too pink" and "a little drained of colour", and I'd be very surprised if anyone did. This has got some of the most vivid reds and blues that I've ever seen on a video release - so rich and punchy that I'm not surprised earlier telecines struggled to resolve them.

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tenia
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#49 Post by tenia » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:11 pm

I watched the BD this weekend and it's the opposite of being a little drained of colors. I actually thought it looked very modern, especially contrast-wise.

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Koukol
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Re: Blood and Black Lace

#50 Post by Koukol » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:24 pm

MichaelB wrote:This is why it's very very unwise to sound off about transfers that you haven't seen, especially in the presence of people who have.
Well, lesson hopefully learned.
But it's hard not to get excited (and unfortunately disappointed) with these titles I love. :)

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