The Idol

[The Narrator Returns]

The HBO-Sam Levinson-The Weeknd series The Idol seems to have gone off the rails, Amy Seimetz has either left or been fired as director (Levinson is set to take over) and Red Rocket's Suzanna Son has left with her. Deadline is saying that The Weeknd objected to Seimetz "leaning too much into a 'female perspective'", and multiple crew members say that the show was just a week away from wrapping when the retooling started.

[Never Cursed]

Man, what kind of deal did they offer The Weeknd that he has the ability to pull something like this (assuming he didn't just threaten to break his contract if he didn't get "his way," and assuming all that has been reported is true)

[therewillbeblus]

Suzanna Son is a huge loss, and I have to imagine there was some pretty toxic stuff going on for someone young and unknown like her to throw away such a big break

[mfunk9786]

Seimetz needs for a man in her industry to step up on her behalf for once in her life. Disgusting if those reports are true, for the name brand, likely a couple zoom meetings a week creative partner of your series to usurp the director's vision that way.

[Mr Sausage]

Pretty surprised Sam Levinson is on board with the whole 'female perspectives are the problem' idea, given that his work tends to favour female perspectives pretty heavily.

[therewillbeblus]

My first thought was that his own creative vision clashed with hers when I heard about this the other day, but that was pre-misogyny claims

[The Narrator Returns]

My first thought was that his own creative vision clashed with hers when I heard about this the other day, but that was pre-misogyny claims

My guess is that's part of it in addition to The Weeknd's bullshit. Levinson has such strong standing at HBO (and an equal, if not greater, creative authority over the show as The Weeknd) that he could've very easily intervened if he wanted Seimetz to stay, that combined with him so quickly filling Seimetz's vacated position raises my suspicions that he wanted her gone just as badly, whether for similarly misogynist reasons or because of regular old "creative differences". Or maybe I'm being unfair and he's just being a good trooper salvaging what seems to be an awful situation.

[swo17]

So it sounds like the two main characters are The Weeknd and Lily-Rose Depp, and the former (also an executive producer and co-creator) wanted the show to focus more on his character. Could "too much of a female perspective" just mean "too little of a Weeknd perspective" or is there something more I'm missing?

[Mr Sausage]

So it sounds like the two main characters are The Weeknd and Lily-Rose Depp, and the former (also an executive producer and co-creator) wanted the show to focus more on his character. Could "too much of a female perspective" just mean "too little of a Weeknd perspective" or is there something more I'm missing?

Essentially. But his comment and the fact Suzanna Son also walked out suggests Seimetz was focusing on the other female characters a lot more as well. Maybe The Weeknd's character wasn't a POV character but became only the subject of these women's POVs? Dunno.

[Never Cursed]

Teaser for troubled Sam Levinson/HBO/The Weeknd production The Idol

[therewillbeblus]

Well, at least it looks amazing

[Computer Raheem]

Teaser for troubled Sam Levinson/HBO/The Weeknd production The Idol

Well, at least it looks amazing

Frankly, I'm more excited for therewillbeblus' psychoanalysis of the series than actually sitting through it.

[Never Cursed]

Second teaser for The Idol. In addition to its previously announced cast, Moses Sumney, Jane Adams, Dan Levy, Rachel Sennott, Hank Azaria, Eli Roth, and music producers Mike Dean and Ramsey are now in this. Suzanna Son is given third billing in the trailer too, which I hope is an indication that reports of toxicity/backstabbing on the set were exaggerated.

[Computer Raheem]

Second teaser for The Idol. In addition to its previously announced cast, Moses Sumney, Jane Adams, Dan Levy, Rachel Sennott, Hank Azaria, Eli Roth, and music producers Mike Dean and Ramsey are now in this. Suzanna Son is given third billing in the trailer too, which I hope is an indication that reports of toxicity/backstabbing on the set were exaggerated.

My reaction to all the promotional material to this show has been, "This looks exactly like the show I'd imagined The Weeknd would make...", but the presence of Mike Dean in a supporting role is enough to make me hate-watch this while I anticipate therewillbeblus' passionate defense

[therewillbeblus]

I don't know if you're familiar with Sam Levinson's other work, but this has his fingerprints all over it. I don't care one way or the other about The Weeknd and know next to nothing about his music, persona, or image, but I am a vocal Levinson supporter, so very confused on why you'd conflate this ostensibly Weeknd-esque show from your vantage point with my predilection for its value

Yes, I think this looks promising and I look forward to giving it a fair shot, and maybe I’ll even publicly recognize it if it's good

[Never Cursed]

Yeah, Computer Raheem, a viewing of Euphoria or Assassination Nation might be in order if you think that the most obvious creative fingerprints on these teasers are Tesfaye and not Levinson. (You could also just do that for its own sake and introduce yourself to a real talent in current mainstream American film).

(For what it's worth, of course I too eagerly anticipate what TWBB will have to say about the show, but I'm also excited to see if our Kanye contingent will be lured into a watch thanks to Mike Dean's presence.)

[Computer Raheem]

I don't know if you're familiar with Sam Levinson's other work, but this has his fingerprints all over it. I don't care one way or the other about The Weeknd and know next to nothing about his music, persona, or image, but I am a vocal Levinson supporter, so very confused on why you'd conflate this ostensibly Weeknd-esque show from your vantage point with my predilection for its value

Yes, I think this looks promising and I look forward to giving it a fair shot, and maybe I’ll even publicly recognize it if it's good

I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of Sam Levinson's work in, so there is a more-than-likely chance that I'm completely off-base, but I am a (relative) fan of The Weeknd, so the basic plot description and the general tone the trailers projected reminded me of The Weeknd's music more than any of the brief snippets of Levinson's work (which is predominately running into out-of-context Euphoria clips on Twitter and YouTube). I'll admit to being wrong though, and despite my very sarcastic joke towards you, I do genuinely enjoy reading your comments on Levinson's work - they do make them out to be more interesting than what the general consensus (both online and in public) make them out to be.

Yeah, Computer Raheem, a viewing of Euphoria or Assassination Nation might be in order if you think that the most obvious creative fingerprints on these teasers are Tesfaye and not Levinson. (You could also just do that for its own sake and introduce yourself to a real talent in current mainstream American film).

(For what it's worth, of course I too eagerly anticipate what TWBB will have to say about the show, but I'm also excited to see if our Kanye contingent will be lured into a watch thanks to Mike Dean's presence.)

As stated above, haven't seen any of Levinson's work, but both of your passionate defenses here (and elsewhere) have convinced me to actually hunker down and watch some of his work. If you guys have any suggestions as to where to start, I'd greatly appreciate the help.

Plus, as the newly-crowned resident Kanye "stan", the presence of Mike Dean in anything is worth the price of admission (I've been suckered into listening to some truly abysmal music because of the temptation for some glorious synth noodling)

[Never Cursed]

I think you definitely want to start with his work involving teenagers; every indication is that his first feature Another Happy Day is garbage, and I love Malcolm and Marie, but it's a film of self-examination whose reflexively critical qualities are all-too-frequently mistaken for an endorsement of shallow toxicity by viewer not in-tune to Levinson's relationship with his own experiences. My personal suggestion would be to watch the first two-three episodes of Euphoria and see if you see what I see. If it would help, Mr. Sausage wrote a wonderful episode-by-episode review of the first season that I think outlined a lot of the show's high points well (obviously only read it as you go along). That said, I can't talk Levinson recommendations without noting that TWBB considers Assassination Nation among his favorite films, and has written at similar length about its place in the world of modern morality and empathy. His summation of Levinson's strengths in that post is the best I've read anywhere:

...this man is a seeker, a curious artist who creates complex works that extract his own emotional reactions and character flaws, courageously contends them with others, and continuously reaches zeniths of self-evaluation, humility, egoism, and growth, before morphing back into another ball of enigmatic cognitive-emotional density to start anew. These are films made by someone who so clearly works a 12-step recovery program of constant introspection, admission of defects, and determination for growth, as well as inconsistent confessions of imperfections.

[Soothsayer]

Baffled by these last few posts.

Why is it so off-base for someone to think of The Weeknd instead of Sam Levinson? For those acting all "duh"...The Weeknd has been around longer and has a larger audience than anything Sam Levinson's ever done. And even more baffling to that response, is the notion that The Weeknd's music isn't somehow an influence on Sam Levinson. Musicians have influenced filmmakers/writers as long as the medium's existed.

And I'm also curious about the Mike Dean inclusion and it's the one thing that draws me to this show. But guess what, I'm not a Kanye fan at all! Mike Dean *also* had a career that's WAY more important than Kanye West to those who actually care to look. He's integral to Houston hip hop history and goes back to literally 1991, for Geto Boys "Mind Playing Tricks on Me", which isn't obscure at all if you pay attention to hip hop.

[DarkImbecile]

Getting a lot of these kind of vibes from both sides of this conversation

[Computer Raheem]

Baffled by these last few posts.

Why is it so off-base for someone to think of The Weeknd instead of Sam Levinson? For those acting all "duh"...The Weeknd has been around longer and has a larger audience than anything Sam Levinson's ever done. And even more baffling to that response, is the notion that The Weeknd's music isn't somehow an influence on Sam Levinson. Musicians have influenced filmmakers/writers as long as the medium's existed.

And I'm also curious about the Mike Dean inclusion and it's the one thing that draws me to this show. But guess what, I'm not a Kanye fan at all! Mike Dean *also* had a career that's WAY more important than Kanye West to those who actually care to look. He's integral to Houston hip hop history and goes back to literally 1991, for Geto Boys "Mind Playing Tricks on Me", which isn't obscure at all if you pay attention to hip hop.

To be fair, I did poke the bear with my initial post, but it was rooted in a frustration that, of all the ways I could imagine a show co-spearheaded by The Weeknd could end up, the show looked like the worst possible version of its initial premise. I'll be willing to give it a chance (and not just because because of Mike Dean), but it's rooting in the faith that the marketing of the show is just really bad and not indicative of the show itself (which is not being helped by all the rumored on-set chaos)

Also, I am aware of Mike Dean's importance to Houston hip hop and the decades of experience he has in the industry, I'm just leaning into my new persona as the Kanye "stan" to rule them all in these neck of the woods

[Computer Raheem]

I think you definitely want to start with his work involving teenagers; every indication is that his first feature Another Happy Day is garbage, and I love Malcolm and Marie, but it's a film of self-examination whose reflexively critical qualities are all-too-frequently mistaken for an endorsement of shallow toxicity by viewer not in-tune to Levinson's relationship with his own experiences. My personal suggestion would be to watch the first two-three episodes of Euphoria and see if you see what I see. If it would help, Mr. Sausage wrote a wonderful episode-by-episode review of the first season that I think outlined a lot of the show's high points well (obviously only read it as you go along). That said, I can't talk Levinson recommendations without noting that TWBB considers Assassination Nation among his favorite films, and has written at similar length about its place in the world of modern morality and empathy. His summation of Levinson's strengths in that post is the best I've read anywhere:

...this man is a seeker, a curious artist who creates complex works that extract his own emotional reactions and character flaws, courageously contends them with others, and continuously reaches zeniths of self-evaluation, humility, egoism, and growth, before morphing back into another ball of enigmatic cognitive-emotional density to start anew. These are films made by someone who so clearly works a 12-step recovery program of constant introspection, admission of defects, and determination for growth, as well as inconsistent confessions of imperfections.

Thanks for the guide! Will probably start with Assassination Nation (I don't currently have time at the moment to start a new show)

[therewillbeblus]

I'm baffled that these rather tempered posts could be baffling to anyone who's frequented this place- no animosity was intended, and yes, I'm sure The Weeknd had an influence on a show he helped create. As far as I know The Weeknd has not created film or television content before, and the trailer looks like a Levinson show from the brief snippets of content to the film grammar, so it's a no brainer to divert one's attention towards influences within this medium to reference and try out before making presumptions. Nobody is saying that The Weeknd's music didn't perhaps have some influence on Levinson's style, but how do you even begin to qualify that and what is the endgame of pushback here?

Computer Raheem, I've mentioned it before, but it's worth repeating in the event that you do feel motivated to give Levinson's work a try: I had issues with a lot of elements of Euphoria my first time through, and it took Never Cursed's patient yet persistent contextualizations for me to reconsider a few of my positions and then appreciate it infinitely more on a revisit. I second Never Cursed's recommendation to watch that first and read through the thread a bit, and then try Assassination Nation, which is a film I'm fairly confident I would not have loved without acclimating to Levinson's particular wavelength of empathy, which is not exactly an easy one to subscribe to- and I say that as someone who should be his ideal audience given all the 12-step recovery easter eggs and subtle worldviews he hides in the textures under the loud exteriors of his art. But I had to do a fair amount of work to get to a place where I could appreciate what he's doing.

This is a case where I strongly recommend not going in chronological order, as the breathing room allotted in Euphoria's first few episodes exercises certain pathways that aid engagement with his accomplishments occurring within the temporal limitations of his preceding film. Or, at least that was my experience

[Computer Raheem]

I'm baffled that these rather tempered posts could be baffling to anyone who's frequented this place- no animosity was intended, and yes, I'm sure The Weeknd had an influence on a show he helped create. As far as I know The Weeknd has not created film or television content before, and the trailer looks like a Levinson show from the brief snippets of content to the film grammar, so it's a no brainer to divert one's attention towards influences within this medium to reference and try out before making presumptions. Nobody is saying that The Weeknd's music didn't perhaps have some influence on Levinson's style, but how do you even begin to qualify that and what is the endgame of pushback here?

Computer Raheem, I've mentioned it before, but it's worth repeating in the event that you do feel motivated to give Levinson's work a try: I had issues with a lot of elements of Euphoria my first time through, and it took Never Cursed's patient yet persistent contextualizations for me to reconsider a few of my positions and then appreciate it infinitely more on a revisit. I second Never Cursed's recommendation to watch that first and read through the thread a bit, and then try Assassination Nation, which is a film I'm fairly confident I would not have loved without acclimating to Levinson's particular wavelength of empathy, which is not exactly an easy one to subscribe to- and I say that as someone who should be his ideal audience given all the 12-step recovery easter eggs and subtle worldviews he hides in the textures under the loud exteriors of his art. But I had to do a fair amount of work to get to a place where I could appreciate what he's doing.

This is a case where I strongly recommend not going in chronological order, as the breathing room allotted in Euphoria's first few episodes exercises certain pathways that aid engagement with his accomplishments occurring within the temporal limitations of his preceding film. Or, at least that was my experience

I thank you and Never Cursed's really tempered and helpful posts - I feared my initial post might have been responded to with animosity or outright hostility. I thank you for being so cordial when you could've brought out the pitchforks instead. With consideration to both of your posts, I'll probably start with Euphoria once I finish the show I'm currently watching (which I will post a thorough dissection on once I finish it). I do also wonder where the bafflement Soothsayer is reading within our posts as well - I've seen (and been a part of) far more baffling and antagonistic discussions on this forum than this

[Never Cursed]

Teaser 3, now dated to 2023