Justified

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kingofthejungle
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Re: Justified

#176 Post by kingofthejungle » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:26 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:For Raylan's part, he's always been sort-of (forgive me) justified in the more unethical things he's done, but this is the first time he seemed to be freely crossing over into uncaring ugliness in pursuit of Daryl--between his comments to Ava, his spiting of Boyd for no good reason, and his decision to potentially sacrifice Kendal to force Daryl's hand, he's going down a dark path.
And interestingly, the darker aspects of Raylan seem to be the more 'by the book' ones - his callousness at Ava's situation ('You missed your chance'), his pulling Boyd's file, and the legal maneuver that tries Kendal as an adult. These aren't the kind of things that would get Raylan fired, but they seem so much colder than the things that would (like setting up Nicky Augustine).

There are so many interesting places this could lead us. I've long wondered what might happen if Raylan were to lose his job, and have to grapple with being Raylan Givens while lacking the legal authority to go out and settle scores the way he does. On the other hand, it might be even more interesting to see him be most vicious when he's at his most fastidiously legal (which is what we seem to be getting a preview of)

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swo17
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Re: Justified

#177 Post by swo17 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:52 pm

domino harvey wrote:barring some horrendous wrong turn in the finale, this season has cemented itself as the best of the series
Agreed. The anus is really on the writers now to make sure the finale delivers.

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Justified

#178 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:30 pm

kingofthejungle wrote:And interestingly, the darker aspects of Raylan seem to be the more 'by the book' ones - his callousness at Ava's situation ('You missed your chance'), his pulling Boyd's file, and the legal maneuver that tries Kendal as an adult. These aren't the kind of things that would get Raylan fired, but they seem so much colder than the things that would (like setting up Nicky Augustine).
Don't forget him leaving the girl behind in jail earlier in the season.

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Re: Justified

#179 Post by Perkins Cobb » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:16 pm

swo17 wrote:Agreed. The anus is really on the writers now to make sure the finale delivers.
I bet they'll just produce a lot of shit, though.

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kingofthejungle
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Re: Justified

#180 Post by kingofthejungle » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:16 pm

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Ok, so Raylan leaning over the dying Darryl Crowe and saying 'I told you that you'd wish I'd killed you' was one of the best moments in the entire series.

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#181 Post by domino harvey » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:16 pm

Beautiful.
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Glad to finally see Duffy and Boyd get that goddamn heroin that's been evading them all season long! Darryl was dispatched by the only person who deserved the pleasure. Some great dialog in the first half between Kendall and Raylan and Tim and Darryl too. Boyd Crowder cuts it the closest ever I think, man, I definitely hollered out loud in glee at how he somehow managed to get out of that one! Thank God Ava's out of prison, Jesus Christ and Amen. The final season's been set up perfectly, a back to basics taking care of all Harlan County business for Raylan before he leaves for Florida. Thank God they didn't go in a "Raylan is kicked out of the Marshals" direction like I feared (though I stopped worrying about that once they showed Raylan doing things more by the book in his vengeance for Art's shooting).
This was the best season yet, certified, but the final season could very well top it. Love this show so much and pity all those who haven't taken the time and pleasure to enjoy it all unfold.

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Polybius
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Re: Justified

#182 Post by Polybius » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:46 am

Not much to add to these last two spot on comments except to say that song gets me every single time.

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#183 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:10 am

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Since they notably mentioned Quarles for the first time in a long while, could this be a hint that he didn't actually die and he'll be cameoing in the final season? His ultimate fate was suspiciously never confirmed on the show

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#184 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:54 am

This thread may be the only bastion of sanity around for Justified fans, as seemingly everyone else on the internet has written this season off as the series' worst. How can so many people be so wrong?

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swo17
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Re: Justified

#185 Post by swo17 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:49 am

What the what? Why are you reading other parts of the internet?

Also, just to clarify a point:
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Between the scene where Wendy says she won't wear a wire and the one where Raylan tells Rachel that she wouldn't cooperate, they totally conspired to kill Daryl exactly how it went down, yes?

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#186 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:57 am

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Yost said in the post-mortem at EW that they cut a scene where she calls him and gives Raylan a heads-up to arrive, indicating that it was her idea and he was just a bystander. But Raylan did just stand aside and let Darryl die via the very method he was always preaching, "Don't get into our family business"

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swo17
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Re: Justified

#187 Post by swo17 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:46 am

I like that they shoot these "connective tissue" scenes (like the one above, or Tim and Rachel getting the call from Raylan to head to Ava's house) and then ultimately discard them, as this leaves open possibilities that the writers might not have even considered. There's a danger in doing this that the surprise will feel in the moment like a narrative cheat, but if you get it right, it just makes the show feel leaner and smarter.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Justified

#188 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:55 am

domino harvey wrote:
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Since they notably mentioned Quarles for the first time in a long while, could this be a hint that he didn't actually die and he'll be cameoing in the final season? His ultimate fate was suspiciously never confirmed on the show
I doubt it. It just came as part of a rundown of the shit Boyd's been at the centre of. I don't think it had any larger purpose.

And, yeah, for sure the best season. And that's no small feat considering there's only been one weak season so far (season 1).

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#189 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:07 pm

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I also speculate because Yost recently said Limehouse will be back next season and played coy when asked if Quarles was dead or not

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Justified

#190 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:55 pm

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Wrapping up Limehouse's character is necessary, but I'm not so sure about Quarles. You may be right, tho'. They might try to use him as a witness against Duffy or Boyd. He's my favourite Justified villain, but I'm not sure I'd want him back for anything more than a cameo.

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Polybius
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Re: Justified

#191 Post by Polybius » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:50 pm

dh is right about much of the rest of the reaction to this season. Most of the objections I've read elsewhere center around Rappaport supposedly being miscast.

It's kind of splitting hairs but I don't think I would call the first season "weak", as such. It's not as thematically unified as the later seasons but I'm not sure they could have jumped into the deep end from day one and had the show be as successful as it's been.

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swo17
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Re: Justified

#192 Post by swo17 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:00 pm

Polybius wrote:Most of the objections I've read elsewhere center around Rappaport supposedly being miscast.
That's madness. Daryl Crowe was maybe the best verbal sparring partner that either Raylan or Boyd has had over the course of the entire series (besides each other, of course).

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#193 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:14 pm

It's like looking at bizarro world over at the AV Club, but then I remember how much they jerk off lots of middlebrow crap and I think they just didn't like this season because it didn't fit into a neat overarching "important" counter-narrative like the others (or, I should say, like they twisted the others). One of their main critics even badmouthed the greatest episode of all time in his cumulative writeup, which is what this emotion was kept around for: =; The comments are worse, somehow. How can anyone not like/fear/revere the Crowes, it literally boggles the mind. As I need to keep reminding myself, I should stop reading all non-newsstories on the AV Club, because their reviews drive me mad-- they are trying to do a Pitchfork and talk fancypants about things I don't think they quite grasp (Also, not strictly related, but why are they rating Persona "A-"? Who gives a shit what the AV Club thinks about Bergman?)

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Justified

#194 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:18 pm

Polybius wrote:It's kind of splitting hairs but I don't think I would call the first season "weak", as such. It's not as thematically unified as the later seasons but I'm not sure they could have jumped into the deep end from day one and had the show be as successful as it's been.
I may well be alone on this, sure, but the first half of the season was rudderless. It was a series of stand-alone adventures with no overarching plot surrounding them, and each adventure was resolved the same way, with Raylan shooting someone to death. Considering the premise of the show was a marshal being disciplined for a questionable shooting, having him resolve each week's problem by shooting another person wasn't just unoriginal, but troubling and not believeable. The second-half of the season found its footing, tho', and was pretty solid, leading us into the superb second and even better third seasons.

The first season is the only one I can make any real criticisms of, and they're forgiveable considering the series was trying to find its footing. Still, whenever I recommend the series I always advise people to at least make it through the second half of season 1 before judging.

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domino harvey
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Re: Justified

#195 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:20 pm

I bought the first season blind, I'm not even sure why in retrospect, and didn't like the first episode at all and only kept watching it because I'd spent the money on it. Once the second half kicked in, I marathoned right through the rest and then the second season started and the rest was love that has only grown in time. I too always hesitate recommending this to others despite it being my favorite show because I know it starts off so rocky, but it's an important foundation and the same thing is true for countless other now beloved classic TV series.

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Justified

#196 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:22 pm

I really just started in on the 2nd season and went from there, only after seeing just a handful of S1 episodes.

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Cronenfly
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Re: Justified

#197 Post by Cronenfly » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:18 pm

Yeah, I'm glad everyone over here is so much more receptive to this season's many charms (Season 3, too, deserves more love than it generally receives). The Crowes were for me not just the Bennetts 2.0; at least there Mags served as something of a stable centre until everything went wrong. The slipperiness of Daryl, which Rapaport does such a good job of playing, was utterly appropriate for a season which called Boyd and especially Raylan on a lot more of their bullshit than in the past. This run of episodes was anything but scattershot; even the Ava material, which was a bit weak in the moment, serves a clear purpose going forward.

More than just course-correcting an initially rocky season 1, Justified has established itself as the best show currently on air at maintaining larger arcs without sacrificing interesting developments in any given episode (Hannibal's doing about equally good a job, but on a comparatively small scale). I am much more confident in this coming to an interesting conclusion than Breaking Bad, which stalled pretty badly for me after the season 4 finale and will not, I think, age in a way which leaves as positive an impression as Yost's creation. I certainly am much more keen to revisit past seasons of the latter, at any rate; the roller coaster rush of BB was fun at the time, but I increasingly suspect that there is not as much depth there as I had once hoped.

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Polybius
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Re: Justified

#198 Post by Polybius » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:40 am

Mr Sausage wrote:I may well be alone on this, sure, but the first half of the season was rudderless.
You're not alone in that opinion. I wouldn't venture a guess on the percentage but there are a substantial number of the show's fans who seem to agree.

For me, the first half of the season establishes who Raylan is, what his relationships are to his father, Ava, Boyd and Winona and where he fits in the Harlan County firmament. We also establish the very Leonardian idea that smart people often relate well to each other, at least superficially, even if they're on opposite sides of the law.

Looking at the episode list, if we take the mid point to be Ep 7 or so, the two I will really stick up for in the first half are Long In The Tooth (almost completely for Clarence Williams' hilarious guest appearance) and the second episode, Riverbrook. Everything about that show is terrific. Kristin Bauer's very non-Pam Shirley and Chris Ellis as her escaped ex-husband who has that perfectly written encounter with Raylan at the convenience store (and later has the classic line "What, and open a string of dildo emporiums?")

I'll agree that the show got rolling as it went along but I was hooked pretty much from the first minute.

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mistakaninja
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Re: Justified

#199 Post by mistakaninja » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:30 am

Yost has said Boyd was initially written to die at the end of the pilot, like he did in Leonard's short story, so the show the envisioned was very different to the one they made. The monster-of-the-week nature of the first few episodes is probably a hangover from that, as presumably they had plotted out at least some of the season already.

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Justified

#200 Post by DarkImbecile » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:32 am

domino harvey wrote:I bought the first season blind, I'm not even sure why in retrospect, and didn't like the first episode at all and only kept watching it because I'd spent the money on it.
This is the only part of the above evaluation of the first season I can't buy into... I thought the first half of the first season was so shaky precisely because it didn't live up to the standard set by that first episode, which is still one of the top three or so pilots I think I've ever seen. The dialogue, character-building, and laser focus on Boyd and Raylan was instantly compelling, and the episode closed with what is still the defining summation of Raylan's character. That said, after the series premiere, it took me six or so episodes to really buy back into the show, but I've never been sorry since.

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