Louie

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Cold Bishop
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Re: Louie

#26 Post by Cold Bishop » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:06 pm

domino harvey wrote:The basic joke of the show, that Louis CK underplays a ridiculous situation, is passable, but the embarrassment offered is often too weird to be awkward, and while the show is mostly amusing, it is not really funny enough to justify the build-up. Thus the formula boils down to a couple of dark comedy skits stretched out, played straight, and book-ended with stand up. And?
Well, while I don't agree, it's a difficult criticism to refute without specific examples, or even a list of which episodes. As I mentioned, a major highlight of the show is its versatility with structure. For a while, it seemed like no two episodes were the same, and really only "Dentist/Tarese" felt like something of a step back.

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domino harvey
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Re: Louie

#27 Post by domino harvey » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:33 pm

You guys seem really defensive about this show

Apparently I actually watched four episodes, not three (Boy, they really do all just blend together): So Old/Playdate, Travel Day/South, Heckler/Cop Movie, Double Date/Mom. I don't see the necessity of specifics, every single item before the slash and after it is a comedy skit extended to look like it's not a comedy skit

I think it's not unreasonable for me to arrive at a conclusion based on four episodes when the initial accolades for this series were sprung from half as many episodes. I could hardly be accused of not giving it a fair shot. I occasionally laughed and enjoyed myself reasonably well, but I can't say I'd ever take the effort to seek it out again of my own accord. It's a harmless show and I wish it no ill will, but it's hardly the grand achievement in television history it's being sold as here

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Cold Bishop
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Re: Louie

#28 Post by Cold Bishop » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:41 am

domino harvey wrote:I don't see the necessity of specifics, every single item before the slash and after it is a comedy skit extended to look like it's not a comedy skit.
I would actually agree with you, up to a point. But I feel the assessment lacks a few observations:

1) There's nothing to suggest that an episodic structure isn't suited for television comedy. There's much to point to it as the privileged narrative form for comedy, its segmented nature matching that of comedy itself (a series of gag). I don't think even you'd argue for this, nor do I think its really the crux of your criticism.

The crux is that the show consists of two unattached episodes drawn out to a 30 minute running time, and cobbled together, but that has its own dilemma.

2) Very few of the episodes consist of two sections (or "skits) as you put it. I can identify at least four completely different sections/skits for "Heckler/Cop Movie", at least three for "So Old/Playdate", around four for "Travel Day/South". "Double Date/Mom" certainly revolves around two centerpieces, but with its own mitigating circumstances.

3) The "drawn-out" nature of the sections are not simple padding or filler, but in fact absolutely central to the nature of each segment. The two most brazen examples - "Heckler" and the "So Old" doctor visit - work only if the sketch go past the level of comfort. If these were simple "skit" length, the former would be simple wish fulfillment, the latter two friends playing the dozens. That both segments go into "overkill" is the point.

More than simply underlining the terror and hatred for which the comedian holds the heckler, Louie's unceasing evisceration of the heckler is suppose to begin to lose the audience a bit, and its severity towards an "unintentionally" rude audience member (its worth noting she isn't really even a "heckler", as she doesn't actually try to belittle Louie until after he puts her on the spot), contrasts with Louie's "unintentional" rudeness and disrespect later.

As for Ricky Gervais - the sketch is suppose to cease being humorous. Gervais's unceasing-assholeness-disguised-as-well-meaning-humor harks right back to David Brent territory. Perhaps it doesn't serve much of a greater point than highlighting the discomfort and vulnerability of a doctor's exam made manifest, but then again, "So Old/Playdate" is hardly my favorite episode.

4) As I've pointed out a bit with the "Heckler/Cop Movie" in my last post, these are not disconnected segments. There's an internal rhythm running through each episode (and the series as a whole) that often connects seemingly disparate sketches.

A level of sexual frustration runs through "Travel Day/South" - Louie's lube explanation matched by his less-than-favorable chance to have sex with the fan later, and more strongly, the male bonding with the overweight passenger (how refreshing that Louie doesn't try a fat joke) matched by the explicitly homoerotic encounter with the cop. Even bombing in front of the audience carries overtones of impotence in this scenario.

As for "Double Date/Mother", I don't see two skits at all because A) its one clear narrative revolving around two dates between Louie and his mother and B) and I don't believe the dates are suppose to be all that funny. Or rather the humor comes only from the discomfort and awkwardness provoked by the episodes' blistering honesty in regards to parent-child relationships, and isn't necessary to understanding the episode. It's not nearly as successful as "Bully" or "God", but its directly points to what those two episodes handle more successfully, namely a willingness to leave humor behind for a more ambitious goal.

Other than its narrative variety, odd for episodic comedy, I don't feel the show is attempting to invent the wheel. It doesn't have to. What it does is tie up several trends which have existed often seperately in television the last few years. The self-consciousness of Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, The Larry Sanders Show. The faux-verite and single-camera comedy of Curb and Arrested Development. The comedy of cruelty and awkwardness which has come so much in vogue in the wake of the original The Office. The blue-collar common-man comedy of Roseanne and Titus. It's this latter one that I think is especially important, as its one that seems to have vanished in the last few years, and never seemed to be perfected. Popular in the 90s, those shows were nevertheless constrained by the network sitcom format, and I can't say I was ever won over by them. Louie, especially in the more dramedic episodes, however, have done brilliant things with it. More than anything, I appreciate this show for its blunt honesty. The basic joke of the show isn't "that Louis CK underplays a ridiculous situation", its, as one character put it, "you can't always get what you want."

It's also probably the best looking comedy on television, and while the earlier episode made you think of single-camera shows like Curb, AD, and It's Always Sunny, it has slowly revealed itself to be a cinematographically handsome show, perhaps the only comedy to attempt the "cinematic" look that cable TV dramas have embraced already for about a decade. Just look at Tom Noonan's recreation of the Passion in the last episode.

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domino harvey
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I regret ever opening this thread

#29 Post by domino harvey » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:23 am

I was just teasing when I said you guys were getting defensive, but the above really is a good example of why I'm resisting the urge to defend Scott Pilgrim at length elsewheres on the board. I don't accept most of the central conceits of your argument, and since your appraisal rests on judgments/assumptions (and personal preferences) of form and constraint, your defense is reduced to addressing the apparent in the positive, as though the person you are talking to just. doesn't. like. get. it. man. I hesitate to be so reductive in response to so lengthy a response, but you seem too close to the material for me to want any part in a debate that would soon devolve into argumentatively impervious topics

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Re: Louie

#30 Post by mfunk9786 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:54 am

I prefer Louis C.K.'s standup (and I wish you'd give it another chance, Dom) to this show by far, and I still don't quite understand the hyperbole, but a few episodes stand out in my mind as being fantastic examples of television writing. Frankly, this is more like short film writing - as each of these episodes don't necessarily feel like episodes of a TV comedy, but rather like self-contained films that work to varying levels of success. The thing that bothers me most is the comparison to the brilliant Curb Your Enthusiasm, which still feels like a linear and classic TV show at the end of the day, and follows a comedic arc that is very successful for the show but one that I don't see in Louie at all. This show is not relying on awkward social discomfort for laughs.

The thing I find so appealing about Louis C.K. as a comic (and in turn, I suppose, as a person) is that he seems absolutely honest and forthright about himself and his opinions and his vices and his flaws. And it's not in an annoying saccharine earnest way, but in a very frank way that can occasionally turn people off due to its vulgarity. But as evidenced in his bit about The Saddest Handjob Ever!! during his Shameless stand-up special, he has an attention to detail about the mundane aspects of everyday life that combines with his large-scale politics and criticisms of bizarre human quirks that works much better than even the most revered stand-up comedians of the last several decades.

Now that he's coming into his (inevitable, unavoidable) fame, I'm so happy to see him ditch his attempt at "TV sucks nowadays" multi-camera sitcommery (Lucky Louie was loved by people who simply loved to see Louis C.K. on TV, but it was a waste of his talent). Louie is the perfect outlet for him, as he finds a way to mix humor with social commentary and completely self-aware analysis of himself.

There are three episodes that have stood out during this season as being fantastic, and they're not exactly the funniest episodes, but the most touching and honest and without-pretense examples of what makes this show so special. To me, Dogpound, Bully, and God are the best examples of what this show can do, not only because they're focused half-hours of television, but also because they explore Louis' love of his daughters (which is very similar to my love of my fiance - the exploration of Louis' lifestyle when his daughters are away for a week is hilariously similar to mine if the missus goes out of town); his honesty about his own limitations and the drawbacks of being a nice middle-aged man in an increasingly aggressive society; and a pitch-perfect could-win-an-Oscar short film about religion - and this is a comedy show! There are laughs in these episodes, sure - but particularly during the church scene in God, they're dead-serious social commentary that never veer into the sugary sweet or the self-aware.

Not that the episodes you chose are duds, Domino, but the show has to be taken as a sum of its parts, strengths and flaws together. The episode Poker/Divorce begins with an unexpected and adept crack at a long conversational piece that makes Kevin Smith's entire oeuvre look like amateur work (no comments from the peanut gallery - I know it kind of is!). And I found the heckler portion of Heckler/Cop Movie to be rather amusing, particularly the twist at the end of the sequence that puts all the seriousness about being a career comedian in perspective.

Louis C.K.'s strength will always be his stand-up act (when I saw the material soon to be featured in his stand-up film Hilarious in person, I nearly died laughing and walked out feeling as if I saw George Carlin in the early '80s) but the first season of this show is a really great start at showing just what a talented social critic C.K. is. The fact that he's occasionally vulgar or might seem like he's trying too hard to make you laugh should be forgiven when you realize just how much he's capable of comedically, especially in this shallow comedic landscape. This show has far more depth and character as any fictional Comedy Central series ever. For example.

And I still don't think it should be mentioned in the same breath as Curb Your Enthusiasm.

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Oedipax
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Re: Louie

#31 Post by Oedipax » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:18 am

I agree it doesn't really function as a classic TV comedy the way Curb does, and the comparison point of socially awkward situations as some kind of crux of Louie, or what makes it worthwhile, is also off the mark. As mfunk said, it functions more as a weekly collection of short films (or sometimes one longer piece) that are loosely based around elements from Louis CK's act, his outlook on life, and autobiographical elements.

The show has made a point of confounding any sense of continuity from one episode to the next, whether it's showing Louis exercising in one episode then making a reference to "never exercising" in the next, having different actresses portray his mother and daughter or, in the case of the last few episodes, having the same actress playing both his mother in a flashback (depicting his "real" mom, not the horrible monster depicted in a previous episode) and a woman he takes out on a date in the present in yet another episode.

The episodes aren't so much part of the same continuous physical universe as they are comic re-imaginings of things from Louis CK's life, occasionally using recurring characters, but more often than not self-contained. I love the format, and it's been great for his material, which can vary wildly from relatively lighthearted and absurd to extremely dark and depressing. As a result, there really is no 'filler' material remaining; no connective tissue from one scene or story to the next besides what's necessary, and no need to resolve things in any kind of traditionally grounded manner (like the way Chelsea Peretti flies off from their date in a helicopter - an absurd ending that would feel bizarre if it were placed next to a scene immediately following in the same 'timeline'). One of LCK's big complaints about Lucky Louie was about trying to write episodes in the traditional sitcom style where you had to justify the presence of most of the supporting cast each episode - finding things for them to do even if the episode was about just a couple characters at its core, as well as being anchored to the same few locations and shooting style each week.

I think Louie is uneven for sure, but it works more often than not and the high points have been incredible especially given the fact that it's still just the first season. The latest episode, God, was really unlike anything I've ever seen on TV; only a few laughs, and an incredibly vivid depiction of religious guilt visited upon young children. One visual gag was astonishing in its mix of comic irony and commentary on religion, where a worker casually re-nails Jesus to the cross after a guilt-ridden young Louis has taken it upon himself to remove Jesus from the cross and tearfully apologize for his minor sins. The show doesn't dwell on this shot, but it's the perfect punctuation to end the scene and the episode, and nothing I'd expect to see on basic cable in a million years.

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Foam
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Re: Louie

#32 Post by Foam » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:28 am

I'm pretty sure he also gets different actors to play his childhood self.

Edit: Great final two episodes.

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Matt
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Re: Louie

#33 Post by Matt » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:15 am

I'd recommend to fans of "Louie" the recent BBC Steve Coogan/Rob Brydon show "The Trip." Very similar in tone and theme, if it doesn't quite reach the depths of self-loathing of "Louie." The clips on YouTube catch some of the best moments of the pair's improvised duelling of impressions and put-downs, but they're really much funnier in the context of the whole episode and the series. It's certainly the best thing Coogan's done in years.

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Re: Louie

#34 Post by kaujot » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:21 am

Coogan's tv work is all stunning, if you ask me. His movie choices, less so, but I still get a big stupid grin on my face whenever he shows up in anything.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Louie

#35 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:01 am

Ugh, this release will now be on those discs that have Blu on one side and DVD on the other. Can anyone comment on the quality of these and whether I should foresee any issues with them?

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Cold Bishop
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Re: Louie

#36 Post by Cold Bishop » Tue May 24, 2011 6:20 pm


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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Louie

#37 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue May 24, 2011 7:36 pm

It’s not the quality of network sitcoms he objects to, he explains; it’s the antic energy he can’t take: the machine gun of polished bits. Although he’s a fan of Family Guy,
buh?

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mfunk9786
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Re: Louie

#38 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 24, 2011 7:59 pm

I'm sort of okay with a middle aged man who might be the funniest man in stand-up comedy having his own unique tastes in comedy. In fact, I'm extremely okay with it. It's refreshing to see someone in comedy who doesn't feel like they need to fellate the hot and now of television, even if I enjoy it.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Louie

#39 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue May 24, 2011 9:21 pm

Yeah, I don't have a problem with a dude who's done years in writer's rooms not liking the kind of things that come out of them, even if they're good- it's just hard to understand why he'd have a soft spot for Family Guy, which is like the most antic show ever created.

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Re: Louie

#40 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm

Sounds like he said he watches it to fall asleep, probably because it's constantly on television somewhere. I wouldn't exactly call that gushing praise. But either way, who cares

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Louie

#41 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue May 24, 2011 9:27 pm

It was an interestingly weird thing in the article? It's not like I'm calling for blood, I just thought that juxtaposition was funny.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Louie

#42 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 24, 2011 10:08 pm

Oh, I didn't mean it argumentatively anyway, just chiming into the conversation with my two cents.

*waits for FerdinandGriffon to tell me to stop trolling*

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Louie

#43 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue May 24, 2011 11:28 pm

I am literally mad with anger over here

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mfunk9786
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Re: Louie

#44 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed May 25, 2011 12:14 am

Juxtapose this, motherfucker ;)

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Foam
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Re: Louie

#45 Post by Foam » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:00 pm

So the opening of this season was amazing.

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Re: Louie

#46 Post by swo17 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:04 pm

This is slightly old news, but Louie has been renewed for a third season. I'm only recently catching up with the second one and I think it's pretty solid so far. I wonder how the meeting went approaching Dane Cook for the "Tickets" episode.

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Re: Louie

#47 Post by knives » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:06 pm

Want a get out of jail free card?

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Foam
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Re: Louie

#48 Post by Foam » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:54 pm

This season has really been something special. I'd point skeptics to "Ducklings" or the finale.

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Re: Louie

#49 Post by LQ » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:19 pm

Here's the first part of a 4-part AV Club interview with Louis CK about the 2nd season.

I really love reading about his creative process, and am looking forward to the dish on "Tickets" and the two episodes that Foam pointed out above in particular. For me, "Duckling" replaced last season's "God" as the best Louie has offered so far. Its one of the most deeply moving episodes of television I've ever seen.

Part 2.
Part 3.
Part 4.
Last edited by LQ on Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Louie

#50 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:34 pm

Between that episode of Louie and the last two episodes of Breaking Bad, I've been blubbering over television far more than I'm comfortable with.

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