Treme
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Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
- Location: New England
- Contact:
Re: Treme
Can't wait for this to get a DVD (or, better, BR release) -- as that's the only way I'm going to get to see it.
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Andre Jurieu
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:38 pm
- Location: Back in Milan (Ind.)
Re: Treme
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but apparently David Simon has been awarded one of the MacArthur Foundation's genius grants.
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flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Re: Treme
This season so far has been nothing short of great, for me. If I can take one element as an example, as someone with a deep appreciation for music, it's wonderful to see the process of creation on television like this. It is going at a languid pace, but I'm not sure I'd want it any other way. Slow and steady sometimes wins the race.
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Sloper
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:06 pm
Re: Treme
I've tried to avoid explicit SPOILERS in this post, but you probably shouldn't read ahead unless you've seen the whole first season.
Although I'm looking forward to the second season, I do sympathise with some of the show's critics. The problem, for me, is not that the series is slow-moving, but that the characters and situations are not complex or interesting enough to make up for that slowness. In The Wire, you had inherently compelling storylines about cops, drug dealers, addicts, politicians, with a specific narrative arc driving each season; within that very conventional structure, you also had characterisation and acting that were far more nuanced than you'd find in most TV shows, which took the whole thing onto another level. Although it took me a season and a half to really become addicted to The Wire, I was kept interested from the very first episode by the character of D'Angelo. Even when things seemed to be moving along rather slowly, I knew I'd have to find out what happened to this character: from the off, it was a perfect combination of compelling drama and multi-layered characterisation. Essentially, though, most of the characters were from stock (especially McNulty and co., with the major exception of Prez), and you knew them as well as you were ever going to within about five minutes.
Treme is far more ambitious, in that it throws out the compelling investigative stuff, and even throws out the 'all the pieces matter' construction of The Wire: here, rather than intricately intertwined plots, we get a mosaic of characters who mostly know each other slightly if at all, so that we're following several discrete storylines at once. In the first place, I have a real problem with the way these stories are told. David Simon has said that the show is all about how New Orleans creates 'moments', and sure enough the series unfolds in a series of very brief moments; it would be interesting to work out what the average scene length is. This approach works well in something like The Wire, but in a less action-oriented drama you need to give the viewer some time to settle into a scene: you can't just throw moments at them and demand that they feel moved, awed or whatever. If the moments were genuinely striking or mysterious or just plain confusing that would be one thing (and sometimes they are), but quite often the 'moment' in question communicates some minuscule and straightforward plot or character development in a fairly obvious manner.
So, for instance, in a late episode we see Janette catering at a party, then the rain and wind ruin all the food, then she finds her house flooded; and so she decides to leave New Orleans. This is all communicated in minute-long vignettes sandwiched between other stories going on at the same time, and so, despite Kim Dickens' superb acting, her character seems to be following a very simplistic, join-the-dots trajectory. Her final day in New Orleans, courtesy of Davis, was a really nice idea, and I liked that moment when she woke up looking out over the water: there was a nice ambivalence to her response. But still it felt like more could have been made of this episode. I don't just mean there should be more dialogue - just that there should be something for the actors and directors to work with to give a sense that there are lots of complex things going on here, rather than just one rather simple thing. Albert's 'I'm gonna be heard' line was another example: it was supposed to deepen and complicate our understanding of the character, but it felt glib compared to the complexity Clarke Peters had already built up through his performance (unlike Wendell Pierce, he really is unrecognisable from The Wire, and it's not just the lack of facial hair).
Some of these characters are simply not very well written. I started off being quite interested in the Sonny and Annie storyline, especially since the characters are so well played, but after a few episodes it just became extraordinarily repetitive. Even at the end of the season, they still didn't seem to have quite finished leaving each other, and the whole thing was starting to look like self-parody. I do think there was a lot of potential in this situation, but the writers never seemed to know where to take it, beyond having other characters throw platitudes at Annie (Steve Earle and the woman Annie shacks up with towards the end came out with some howlingly banal advice). Ladonna's search for her brother also petered out, and by the time she tracked him down I just didn't care anymore. Nor did her not telling her mother about her discovery until after Mardi Gras strike me as the devastatingly powerful drama the show seemed to want to present it as. And the final shot of Daymo in his cell, looking slowly up at the camera, was absurdly portentous when we'd just seen the bathetic incident that caused him to be arrested; the awfulness of what happened to him had nothing to do with this, and everything to do with what happened once the storm hit, which of course we don't see. That long flashback to before the storm reminded me of the end-of-season montages in The Wire. The latter always make you realise how far things have come, how well you've got to know the characters, how much has happened, how much has changed or stayed the same. The flashback in Treme made me realise how very little I've got to know these characters, and how very little has happened in one season. It made me think the whole story could have been told much more powerfully and efficiently (and to a larger audience) in a good three-hour film - something a bit like Short Cuts, I suppose. Only better.
I got pretty bored with Antoine Batiste as well, although his encounter with a Japanese jazz fan was one of the major highlights of the series - funny and touching without overdoing the sentimentality, thanks to those little moments of tension and disagreement between them. The show often seems most comfortable when music is the focus of its attention, which is telling...
The most problematic character is Creighton Bernette, and I ended up thinking that he really summed up what was wrong with this series. Remember the academic in Season 4 of The Wire: the one who meant well and wanted to help, but ended up being walked out on by Colvin, because he was ultimately an outsider who couldn't understand or improve the situation of the schoolchildren? Creighton has a lot in common with him, in that he is an outsider (as his wife points out when they're arguing over some KKK-oriented parade, which he's defending; I forget the details) who passionately wants to be the voice of New Orleans' outrage, but ultimately despairs of ever participating in the city's renewal.
What's interesting is that he is also the voice of David Simon: he actually says to his students that New Orleans is full of 'moments of urban transcendence and artistic clarity, if only we are not too jaded or just plain stupid to see them' (may be paraphrasing here). The writers, Simon included, must have sensed how inadequate and unconvincing this sounds. Does anyone outside academia really think that people can subsist on moments of urban transcendence and artistic clarity? I'm a budding (or at least germinating) literary critic, and a full-time squirming aesthete, and even I think that's bullshit. And of course the series ends up agreeing with me on this; Creighton doesn't have the stamina or moral fibre to stick it out while the rest of the city is 'on its knees'.
David Simon himself is an admiring and fiercely sympathetic outsider to New Orleans. When depicting Baltimore, he could show it warts and all, with the kind of deep understanding and uncompromising honesty that presumably come from having lived, worked, struggled and despaired in a city for that long. When writing about New Orleans, his approach feels much more cautious: he wants to show how hard things are, but knows that he'll be criticised if he opts for the kind of all-consuming pessimism that characterised The Wire. And so he places the emphasis on hope, on those moments of urban/artistic transcendence (I guess this is the level on which he appreciates the city), on characters struggling to keep the real New Orleans spirit alive - but at the same time writes himself in as a ranting, academic outsider whose pessimism leads to self-destruction. I know that's a simplistic and presumptuous theory, but it captures what I think is wrong with the show: it's so hesitant and half-baked. Okay, it's unfair to compare it to The Wire when it clearly has very different intentions, but when you compare the way the two shows go about fulfilling those intentions, Treme seems so much more detached from its subject, as if it doesn't quite have the courage to get its hands dirty and develop some real drama.
Having said all that, there's a lot to like about the show. Some people don't seem to respond well to Davis McAlary, but I think this is a brilliant character: his stint in politics was worrying, but otherwise he's wonderfully complicated, likeable, contemptible, and played to perfection by Steve Zahn. I would have liked to see more of the relationships between Janette and Jacques, and Ladonna and Antoine (and his latest life partner). And taken simply as a visual poem about New Orleans, it's a great show - the Mardi Gras episode in particular did a fantastic job of capturing and conveying the spirit of the festival (of course I've never been anywhere near New Orleans, so what would I know). There's no faulting the acting, direction or photography, and I don't mind the long musical/cooking interludes; they're a big part of what keeps me watching. I wouldn't mind too much if they threw out everything else, in fact.
What does bother me is when people defending the show claim that its critics just don't understand or appreciate New Orleans because they're outsiders. In the first place, the show is not New Orleans; it's a show that happens to be set in New Orleans, although its title does invite you to identify it with the place itself. In the second place, if Treme is, in part, complaining about how New Orleans has been left behind and forgotten by the rest of America/the world, surely it's counter-productive to picture it as an exclusivist show, accessible only to the initiated? It's not harder to make sense of and appreciate than The Wire, but it certainly provides fewer incentives for the viewer (not just the 'casual viewer' so disdained by Simon, but even the viewer who patiently sits through all ten episodes) to stay interested. And in the third place, as I said above, I don't think it's only as a piece of thrilling drama that it falls down, but also as a hymn to New Orleans: even after one season of The Wire, you felt as though you'd been living in Baltimore; after one season of Treme, you (or at least I) feel as though I've been looking at and listening to parts of New Orleans, while being occasionally distracted by some complex and some rather shallow and some very dull people I hardly know.
Anyway, I still like it enough to keep watching when the next season comes here, and maybe it'll get its hooks deeper into me then. It's certainly the only TV drama that's held my interest since The Wire, and I'm glad it's still going. I'd be really interested to hear more from fans or critics around these parts... The Guardian's series blog was kind of boring.
Although I'm looking forward to the second season, I do sympathise with some of the show's critics. The problem, for me, is not that the series is slow-moving, but that the characters and situations are not complex or interesting enough to make up for that slowness. In The Wire, you had inherently compelling storylines about cops, drug dealers, addicts, politicians, with a specific narrative arc driving each season; within that very conventional structure, you also had characterisation and acting that were far more nuanced than you'd find in most TV shows, which took the whole thing onto another level. Although it took me a season and a half to really become addicted to The Wire, I was kept interested from the very first episode by the character of D'Angelo. Even when things seemed to be moving along rather slowly, I knew I'd have to find out what happened to this character: from the off, it was a perfect combination of compelling drama and multi-layered characterisation. Essentially, though, most of the characters were from stock (especially McNulty and co., with the major exception of Prez), and you knew them as well as you were ever going to within about five minutes.
Treme is far more ambitious, in that it throws out the compelling investigative stuff, and even throws out the 'all the pieces matter' construction of The Wire: here, rather than intricately intertwined plots, we get a mosaic of characters who mostly know each other slightly if at all, so that we're following several discrete storylines at once. In the first place, I have a real problem with the way these stories are told. David Simon has said that the show is all about how New Orleans creates 'moments', and sure enough the series unfolds in a series of very brief moments; it would be interesting to work out what the average scene length is. This approach works well in something like The Wire, but in a less action-oriented drama you need to give the viewer some time to settle into a scene: you can't just throw moments at them and demand that they feel moved, awed or whatever. If the moments were genuinely striking or mysterious or just plain confusing that would be one thing (and sometimes they are), but quite often the 'moment' in question communicates some minuscule and straightforward plot or character development in a fairly obvious manner.
So, for instance, in a late episode we see Janette catering at a party, then the rain and wind ruin all the food, then she finds her house flooded; and so she decides to leave New Orleans. This is all communicated in minute-long vignettes sandwiched between other stories going on at the same time, and so, despite Kim Dickens' superb acting, her character seems to be following a very simplistic, join-the-dots trajectory. Her final day in New Orleans, courtesy of Davis, was a really nice idea, and I liked that moment when she woke up looking out over the water: there was a nice ambivalence to her response. But still it felt like more could have been made of this episode. I don't just mean there should be more dialogue - just that there should be something for the actors and directors to work with to give a sense that there are lots of complex things going on here, rather than just one rather simple thing. Albert's 'I'm gonna be heard' line was another example: it was supposed to deepen and complicate our understanding of the character, but it felt glib compared to the complexity Clarke Peters had already built up through his performance (unlike Wendell Pierce, he really is unrecognisable from The Wire, and it's not just the lack of facial hair).
Some of these characters are simply not very well written. I started off being quite interested in the Sonny and Annie storyline, especially since the characters are so well played, but after a few episodes it just became extraordinarily repetitive. Even at the end of the season, they still didn't seem to have quite finished leaving each other, and the whole thing was starting to look like self-parody. I do think there was a lot of potential in this situation, but the writers never seemed to know where to take it, beyond having other characters throw platitudes at Annie (Steve Earle and the woman Annie shacks up with towards the end came out with some howlingly banal advice). Ladonna's search for her brother also petered out, and by the time she tracked him down I just didn't care anymore. Nor did her not telling her mother about her discovery until after Mardi Gras strike me as the devastatingly powerful drama the show seemed to want to present it as. And the final shot of Daymo in his cell, looking slowly up at the camera, was absurdly portentous when we'd just seen the bathetic incident that caused him to be arrested; the awfulness of what happened to him had nothing to do with this, and everything to do with what happened once the storm hit, which of course we don't see. That long flashback to before the storm reminded me of the end-of-season montages in The Wire. The latter always make you realise how far things have come, how well you've got to know the characters, how much has happened, how much has changed or stayed the same. The flashback in Treme made me realise how very little I've got to know these characters, and how very little has happened in one season. It made me think the whole story could have been told much more powerfully and efficiently (and to a larger audience) in a good three-hour film - something a bit like Short Cuts, I suppose. Only better.
I got pretty bored with Antoine Batiste as well, although his encounter with a Japanese jazz fan was one of the major highlights of the series - funny and touching without overdoing the sentimentality, thanks to those little moments of tension and disagreement between them. The show often seems most comfortable when music is the focus of its attention, which is telling...
The most problematic character is Creighton Bernette, and I ended up thinking that he really summed up what was wrong with this series. Remember the academic in Season 4 of The Wire: the one who meant well and wanted to help, but ended up being walked out on by Colvin, because he was ultimately an outsider who couldn't understand or improve the situation of the schoolchildren? Creighton has a lot in common with him, in that he is an outsider (as his wife points out when they're arguing over some KKK-oriented parade, which he's defending; I forget the details) who passionately wants to be the voice of New Orleans' outrage, but ultimately despairs of ever participating in the city's renewal.
What's interesting is that he is also the voice of David Simon: he actually says to his students that New Orleans is full of 'moments of urban transcendence and artistic clarity, if only we are not too jaded or just plain stupid to see them' (may be paraphrasing here). The writers, Simon included, must have sensed how inadequate and unconvincing this sounds. Does anyone outside academia really think that people can subsist on moments of urban transcendence and artistic clarity? I'm a budding (or at least germinating) literary critic, and a full-time squirming aesthete, and even I think that's bullshit. And of course the series ends up agreeing with me on this; Creighton doesn't have the stamina or moral fibre to stick it out while the rest of the city is 'on its knees'.
David Simon himself is an admiring and fiercely sympathetic outsider to New Orleans. When depicting Baltimore, he could show it warts and all, with the kind of deep understanding and uncompromising honesty that presumably come from having lived, worked, struggled and despaired in a city for that long. When writing about New Orleans, his approach feels much more cautious: he wants to show how hard things are, but knows that he'll be criticised if he opts for the kind of all-consuming pessimism that characterised The Wire. And so he places the emphasis on hope, on those moments of urban/artistic transcendence (I guess this is the level on which he appreciates the city), on characters struggling to keep the real New Orleans spirit alive - but at the same time writes himself in as a ranting, academic outsider whose pessimism leads to self-destruction. I know that's a simplistic and presumptuous theory, but it captures what I think is wrong with the show: it's so hesitant and half-baked. Okay, it's unfair to compare it to The Wire when it clearly has very different intentions, but when you compare the way the two shows go about fulfilling those intentions, Treme seems so much more detached from its subject, as if it doesn't quite have the courage to get its hands dirty and develop some real drama.
Having said all that, there's a lot to like about the show. Some people don't seem to respond well to Davis McAlary, but I think this is a brilliant character: his stint in politics was worrying, but otherwise he's wonderfully complicated, likeable, contemptible, and played to perfection by Steve Zahn. I would have liked to see more of the relationships between Janette and Jacques, and Ladonna and Antoine (and his latest life partner). And taken simply as a visual poem about New Orleans, it's a great show - the Mardi Gras episode in particular did a fantastic job of capturing and conveying the spirit of the festival (of course I've never been anywhere near New Orleans, so what would I know). There's no faulting the acting, direction or photography, and I don't mind the long musical/cooking interludes; they're a big part of what keeps me watching. I wouldn't mind too much if they threw out everything else, in fact.
What does bother me is when people defending the show claim that its critics just don't understand or appreciate New Orleans because they're outsiders. In the first place, the show is not New Orleans; it's a show that happens to be set in New Orleans, although its title does invite you to identify it with the place itself. In the second place, if Treme is, in part, complaining about how New Orleans has been left behind and forgotten by the rest of America/the world, surely it's counter-productive to picture it as an exclusivist show, accessible only to the initiated? It's not harder to make sense of and appreciate than The Wire, but it certainly provides fewer incentives for the viewer (not just the 'casual viewer' so disdained by Simon, but even the viewer who patiently sits through all ten episodes) to stay interested. And in the third place, as I said above, I don't think it's only as a piece of thrilling drama that it falls down, but also as a hymn to New Orleans: even after one season of The Wire, you felt as though you'd been living in Baltimore; after one season of Treme, you (or at least I) feel as though I've been looking at and listening to parts of New Orleans, while being occasionally distracted by some complex and some rather shallow and some very dull people I hardly know.
Anyway, I still like it enough to keep watching when the next season comes here, and maybe it'll get its hooks deeper into me then. It's certainly the only TV drama that's held my interest since The Wire, and I'm glad it's still going. I'd be really interested to hear more from fans or critics around these parts... The Guardian's series blog was kind of boring.
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karmajuice
- Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:02 am
Re: Treme
I've only just watched the first episode of this series, but I'm looking forward to more. I live in the city, so that's incentive enough, and while I've already noticed some inaccuracies it's amazing how much they get right. I've read a lot about the slow pace and it's evident even in the first episode, but frankly, that's New Orleans. Very little happens in this city, and when it does it happens at a snail's pace. It's too hot to do it any other way (I'm sitting in my house with my broken air conditioning now, sweating while I type).
Sometimes I think people resent the whole Katrina fiasco solely because it forced them to get up and move around.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the rest of the series. My housemates and I are watching it together, though, so it may take a while, as we seldom manage to coordinate our free time.
Sometimes I think people resent the whole Katrina fiasco solely because it forced them to get up and move around.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the rest of the series. My housemates and I are watching it together, though, so it may take a while, as we seldom manage to coordinate our free time.
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swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: Treme
A few months old, but here's an in-depth interview with David Simon. Cue snarky comment from mfunk.
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flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Re: TV of 2012
I loved season 2 of Treme and am looking very much forward to number 3. Music is just one part of the show, but I like that the show took the time to dedicate part of the season to musical discovery and invention.
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flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Re: Treme
Season premiere was good last night. It'll be a nice calm after the double-punch of Dexter and Homeland once they start up next week. Glad HBO gave it a final season, though truncated. Hopefully they can wind it all up right by then.
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flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Re: Treme
The final season will premiere in December.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Treme
Great finale tonite, hopefully people start to seek this out now that it'll soon all be available for mass consumption in one big bite. Reading most of this thread and its criticisms is like peeking into an alternate reality where everyone else is watching a different show, and fuck some of y'all for making me put off the show for so long thanks to the shrug-at-best negativity. I know this show will always be compared (and unfavorably) to the Wire but it seems to me that its just as indebted to Friday Night Lights' deeply-felt humanism and complex characterization. The biggest difference between this and the Wire is that Simon and company love every character, no matter how flawed, and are rooting for them, whereas the Wire was content to throw any and every character to the dogs without hesitation. That doesn't mean Treme always played it nice or fair, just that it cared.
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Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: Treme
Well put.
I'm deeply satisfied. Even the truncated run didn't limit the impact, for me.
The only thing that really sets my teeth on edge is the high likelihood that we'll eventually see a rerun of The Wire experience, with a bunch of people trying to tell us that they just love Antoine and The Chief and did all along.
I'm deeply satisfied. Even the truncated run didn't limit the impact, for me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's a major reason why I've posted so little, in spite of this being my single favorite show of it's time on the scene.domino harvey wrote: Reading most of this thread and its criticisms is like peeking into an alternate reality where everyone else is watching a different show
The only thing that really sets my teeth on edge is the high likelihood that we'll eventually see a rerun of The Wire experience, with a bunch of people trying to tell us that they just love Antoine and The Chief and did all along.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Treme
One of the more interesting things to come out of watching the series removed from the thoughts and whining of others is the discovery that many viewers, even self-professed fans, seem to collectively dislike some of the most interesting characters on the show. Like, apparently everyone hates Steve Zahn's DJ Davis, which seems insane to me-- are we really at the point that it's impossible to appreciate a flawed but enthusiastic and realistic portrayal of a developmentally delayed musician (the immaturity of which proved great fodder in the last couple episodes-- was there a funnier moment in the whole series than Zahn's Mardi Gras costume last night?), a character the series asks us to accept and embrace as strongly as any other? And while of course what Jon Seda's character does for a living is morally suspect, he's presented as a genuinely curious outsider who appreciates much of what those who embody the series are trying to keep alive-- that he's self-preserving and confident in his right to make money where it's there to be made is a character trait. And yet I'm seeing him described as a villain? I need to learn to stop reading comment sections for things I like (Somebody embroider this on a throw pillow for me)
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Andre Jurieu
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:38 pm
- Location: Back in Milan (Ind.)
Re: Treme
I've rarely thought of Nelson (Jon Seda) as a pure villain, considering his interest in the city and the surrounding culture seems genuine, but I can understand the hesitation and the difficulty in fully embracing a character mainly motivated by profit. He's a character you can respect more than sincerely admire, kind of like Marlo was on The Wire. Marlo was portrayed far more overtly as a villain, but allowed some leeway to demonstrate that he had shades of cunning manipulation behind the more blatant ruthlessness. Nelson really isn't a villain, so much as an outside opportunist, and Simon provides him more humanity. It's tough to really like a character who is exploiting an opportunity for profit, based largely upon the suffering others are experiencing through minimal fault of their own actions, but I think any logical or reasonable observer (likely not found in an internet comments section) wouldn't view Nelson as an antagonist or overtly evil.
On the other hand, while I enjoy the enthusiasm that Davis has for the music created by his community, I just can't stand the way that Zahn portrays him - and I actually don't mind Zahn as an actor. He's just a frustrating character, not because he's immature or misguided or developmentally delayed, but because his missteps and mistakes are just ridiculous and exasperating since they are so transparent and inevitable. It's basically like watching an extended sketch from Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, where you're being told these people are doing something of significance, but there is no visible evidence (which is actually more appropriate in this context than in the former, but no less maddening). I would also hesitate to say that Zahn's portrayal is realistic, considering the real person it's based upon is a fraction more grounded and self-aware than Zahn's interpretation - he sometimes appears to comprehend his own absurdity and directionless creativity. While the degree of difference between fiction and reality is minute (Rogan still has more overwhelming enthusiasm than actual practical/functional talent), it's still present and apparent. While neither McAlary or Rogan are as observant as they - or the Treme creators - seem to believe, I found Zahn to be maddeningly annoying far too often, while the actual person is somewhat endearing in his delusional ambitions.
On the other hand, while I enjoy the enthusiasm that Davis has for the music created by his community, I just can't stand the way that Zahn portrays him - and I actually don't mind Zahn as an actor. He's just a frustrating character, not because he's immature or misguided or developmentally delayed, but because his missteps and mistakes are just ridiculous and exasperating since they are so transparent and inevitable. It's basically like watching an extended sketch from Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, where you're being told these people are doing something of significance, but there is no visible evidence (which is actually more appropriate in this context than in the former, but no less maddening). I would also hesitate to say that Zahn's portrayal is realistic, considering the real person it's based upon is a fraction more grounded and self-aware than Zahn's interpretation - he sometimes appears to comprehend his own absurdity and directionless creativity. While the degree of difference between fiction and reality is minute (Rogan still has more overwhelming enthusiasm than actual practical/functional talent), it's still present and apparent. While neither McAlary or Rogan are as observant as they - or the Treme creators - seem to believe, I found Zahn to be maddeningly annoying far too often, while the actual person is somewhat endearing in his delusional ambitions.
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Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: Treme
I was down on Davis for maybe the first 3-4 episodes, then he started growing on me. By the time he spat out "What's the name of this band? Journey?!?" he had me completely locked up.
And dom is dead on about Hidalgo. Even at his slimiest, he still seemed genuinely engaged with much of the culture of the city and had legitimate (if slightly superficial) relationships with many of the leading characters. Janette and LaDonna both took to him and they had excellent Asshole Radar. And Antoine didn't think he was a Suckubutt.
Speaking of LaDonna, I ran into a lot of online ripping of her, especially early on, none of which I really understood (aside from the fact that a lot of TV fanboys who pop up on internet forums can't really handle a strong woman like her.) I thought the gutwrenching search that she and Toni conducted to find her brother was one of the central threads of the first season, mostly due to the strength and depth of her performance.
And dom is dead on about Hidalgo. Even at his slimiest, he still seemed genuinely engaged with much of the culture of the city and had legitimate (if slightly superficial) relationships with many of the leading characters. Janette and LaDonna both took to him and they had excellent Asshole Radar. And Antoine didn't think he was a Suckubutt.
Speaking of LaDonna, I ran into a lot of online ripping of her, especially early on, none of which I really understood (aside from the fact that a lot of TV fanboys who pop up on internet forums can't really handle a strong woman like her.) I thought the gutwrenching search that she and Toni conducted to find her brother was one of the central threads of the first season, mostly due to the strength and depth of her performance.
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Andre Jurieu
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:38 pm
- Location: Back in Milan (Ind.)
Re: Treme
I thought LaDonna was one of the most consistent characters throughout the show's run and thought she had one of the more compelling narratives on the show. Having said that (and I should add that I like Khandi Alexander - particularly on The Corner, Menace to Society, and NewsRadio) there were a few moments last season while I was watching Khandi Alexander's performance where I thought her posture was ridiculous - it honestly looked like she was trying to channel Britta making fun of Annie's posture in The Psychology of Letting Go ("saving the planet makes my back hurt").Polybius wrote:Speaking of LaDonna, I ran into a lot of online ripping of her, especially early on, none of which I really understood (aside from the fact that a lot of TV fanboys who pop up on internet forums can't really handle a strong woman like her.) I thought the gutwrenching search that she and Toni conducted to find her brother was one of the central threads of the first season, mostly due to the strength and depth of her performance.
As much as I enjoyed the show and was interested in the fate of its characters, I have to say that there were just too many moments where I thought the creators were far more impressed with their efforts than could be asked of any reasonable viewer. It felt like this was Simon mimicking a culture rather than giving us a glimpse at something he genuinely comprehends. It kind of felt like a missed opportunity to me in some ways because he got so transfixed with the noise rather than focusing on the substance beneath the city.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Treme
I am not trying to pick a fight but I don't understand your criticisms in the second paragraph. Could you expand on them a bit?
I think LaDonna was a character with a strong personality but seemingly driven by the needs of others. I cringed when the second season went there with her storyline, but was impressed with how the show focused on how eventually she refused to be defined by her fear. Unfortunately I don't think she was given as much to do in the last season and was only around to bring comfort to Chief Albert. I just read an interview with Simon where he admits we would have gotten more of the dissolution of her marriage had there been more episodes, which I think would have given her a little something extra to do. She and Toni and Sonny def got the short stick in the smaller final season, though at least Sonny's story was pretty well wrapped up by the end of season three (though the bow with Annie dedicating the old busking song to him in the audience was a nice bow). I really liked the purgatorial view of Annie's time in Nashville as well-- she's come a long way, but at what cost? Some hilarious facial comedy in Annie's disgust at the generic MOR song she's been handed, and that's even before the autotune comes in!
I don't know, obviously I'm in the minority on Davis but when I said realistic I meant in terms of I believed in this character as presented (not necessarily as compared to his real-life counterpart) and know my share of musicians that resemble him in more than passing fashion! I loved the lampshading of his pull with beautiful women by his neighbors in either the finale or the episode before (forget which) despite his myriad flaws. You can even see Janette's hesitancy and unease with a non-jokey Davis in the finale and her Apartment-esque response to his proclamation at the end of the finale was great. I reckon overall Janette and Davis and Antoine ended up being my favorite characters and it helps that they were among the most well-served by show.
I think LaDonna was a character with a strong personality but seemingly driven by the needs of others. I cringed when the second season went there with her storyline, but was impressed with how the show focused on how eventually she refused to be defined by her fear. Unfortunately I don't think she was given as much to do in the last season and was only around to bring comfort to Chief Albert. I just read an interview with Simon where he admits we would have gotten more of the dissolution of her marriage had there been more episodes, which I think would have given her a little something extra to do. She and Toni and Sonny def got the short stick in the smaller final season, though at least Sonny's story was pretty well wrapped up by the end of season three (though the bow with Annie dedicating the old busking song to him in the audience was a nice bow). I really liked the purgatorial view of Annie's time in Nashville as well-- she's come a long way, but at what cost? Some hilarious facial comedy in Annie's disgust at the generic MOR song she's been handed, and that's even before the autotune comes in!
I don't know, obviously I'm in the minority on Davis but when I said realistic I meant in terms of I believed in this character as presented (not necessarily as compared to his real-life counterpart) and know my share of musicians that resemble him in more than passing fashion! I loved the lampshading of his pull with beautiful women by his neighbors in either the finale or the episode before (forget which) despite his myriad flaws. You can even see Janette's hesitancy and unease with a non-jokey Davis in the finale and her Apartment-esque response to his proclamation at the end of the finale was great. I reckon overall Janette and Davis and Antoine ended up being my favorite characters and it helps that they were among the most well-served by show.
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Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
Re: Treme
It's a challenge to make a character like Davis likeable, and I think the series easily pulled it off. Probably the moment that first won me over to him was this part of his "Shame Shame Shame" song, which shows that he knows the song is about something far more than the person who happens to be singing it:
Right now, y'all are stuck listening to this messed-up white boy, because whichever 14-year-old from Lafitte Projects is the next Smiley Lewis, he's stuck out there in east bumfuck Texas. He can't get home to sing this fucking song!
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Roger Ryan
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:04 pm
- Location: A Midland town spread and darkened into a city
Re: Treme
Even if you feel Simon and company were skimming on providing a true look at New Orleans, there's no question that the love of the music showed through on every episode. I don't believe I've ever seen a drama series that devoted as much time to music as TREME did. And, importantly, these moments were always about the music, not attempts to shine a spotlight on the performer in the way FAME or GLEE has done.
I agree with all of the accolades in this thread and would only like to add that my favorite moment from the finale was...
I agree with all of the accolades in this thread and would only like to add that my favorite moment from the finale was...
SpoilerShow
Hidalgo manipulating Feeny into allowing Janette to use her name for her own restaurant (knowing that his promise to feature Feeny's chain restaurant in the Jazz Museum will never have to be fulfilled). A nice moment that shows the opportunistic Hidalgo using his misfortune to do a good turn.
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Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: Treme
I also liked her "Do you want to try it?" gesture with her bow and instrument during the closing montage.domino harvey wrote: I really liked the purgatorial view of Annie's time in Nashville as well-- she's come a long way, but at what cost? Some hilarious facial comedy in Annie's disgust at the generic MOR song she's been handed, and that's even before the autotune comes in!
I've known a guy for 30 years who has a ton of Davis in him.I don't know, obviously I'm in the minority on Davis but when I said realistic I meant in terms of I believed in this character as presented (not necessarily as compared to his real-life counterpart) and know my share of musicians that resemble him in more than passing fashion!
Roger Ryan wrote:I agree with all of the accolades in this thread and would only like to add that my favorite moment from the finale was...SpoilerShowHidalgo manipulating Feeny into allowing Janette to use her name for her own restaurant (knowing that his promise to feature Feeny's chain restaurant in the Jazz Museum will never have to be fulfilled). A nice moment that shows the opportunistic Hidalgo using his misfortune to do a good turn.
SpoilerShow
"100% of nothing" to use his apt phrase.
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flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Re: Treme
I'm honestly more sad to see this go than Breaking Bad, which you knew from the beginning had a limit on it because of the time-sensitive premise. This could have gone a few more and I wouldn't have gotten bored with it. But as it is, I think it ended perfectly.