Fritz Lang

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domino harvey
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Re: Fritz Lang

#51 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:04 pm

Also, friendly reminder all future List Projects for the next couple years are outlined here, with more specific start and stop dates here

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Re: Fritz Lang

#52 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:05 pm

domino harvey wrote:Rayon Vert is just getting ahead of himself.
Indeed. I'm just making sure I've got the films for the starting date!

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Re: Fritz Lang

#53 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:55 pm

The Fritz Lang Auteur List is now running through September 4th. If you lurk on the board, you will need to log in to see the thread. Anyone reading this may submit a list without posting/participating publicly, but c'mon, go post your thoughts in that thread!

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domino harvey
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Re: Fritz Lang

#54 Post by domino harvey » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:08 pm

Reminder that the Fritz Lang Auteur List ends one week from today (September 4th)! Even if you haven't participated, you can submit a list-- but there's still a week left, come say something about Fritz Lang!

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Re: Fritz Lang

#55 Post by Stefan Andersson » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:03 pm


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senseabove
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Re: Fritz Lang

#56 Post by senseabove » Fri May 10, 2019 2:52 am

Forgive me for not reading through absolutely everything Lang-related on here to dig up any juicy details, but I think I've dug up all the direct mentions and don't see any answers: does anyone know what the story is regarding The Blue Gardenia? It looks like every screening in the past two decades has been from a 16mm print, which seems exceptionally unusual for a film distributed by WB. 16mm is how I saw (and loved) it a few years ago, but its absence from an upcoming American Lang retrospective near me has made me more curious why...

And from what I did gather on here, the German DVD is the best way to see it at home. Is that still the case?

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domino harvey
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Re: Fritz Lang

#57 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:48 pm

This week’s In Our Time episode is about Lang. Had to laugh at Bragg trying to initially set up an emphasis on Metropolis and all the Lang experts pivoting to M instead (as you’d expect). Good discussions mainly of those two, the Big Heat, Fury, the first Mabuse, Hangmen Also Die, and an ending debate on Beyond a Reasonable Doubt’s merits

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Re: Fritz Lang

#58 Post by Red Screamer » Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:16 pm

Anecdotally, Metropolis seems to have become the most popular silent film among non-cinephiles. Several people have told me it's the only silent film they've seen. Which is funny because, yeah, most devotees of Lang or silent film wouldn't put it in their top tier of favorites. I'd guess historical import and sci-fi special effects are the big draws, but it also seems like the film was more beloved decades ago before Lang's American output had much of a critical reputation, and maybe the mainstream is just now catching up.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#59 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:58 pm

It's the only Lang film I'd ever heard of back before I discovered cinema, and probably then only because I read Ebert's review of the 80s Giorgio Moroder version. I can't help but think something with more forward momentum like Spione or Mabuse would be more interesting for those who don't watch a lot of or any silent films, but maybe the ostentatious set design and scope is the selling point in addition to it being sci-fi and thus a genre film and acceptable to some less adventurous viewers

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Never Cursed
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Re: Fritz Lang

#60 Post by Never Cursed » Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:11 pm

Speaking as someone who suffered through some bad Intro to Film classes not long ago, yeah, Metropolis is used a lot as an introduction to silents on the grounds that it's a genre film and thus more immediately approachable to people who like sci-fi but would be put off by (invariably there's some discussion of the film's influence on Star Wars). I've always thought this was a stupid rationale, particularly when there exist no end of great silent comedy stuff that is so much more immediately enjoyable.

And I coincidentally watched the Moroder Metropolis not too long ago - a fascinating idea, but it's one of the worst films I've ever seen; I cannot caution hard enough against it.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#61 Post by FrauBlucher » Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:14 pm

I prefer Die Nibelungen over Metropolis. I do enjoy Metropolis but I definitely put it behind most of his German output

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domino harvey
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Re: Fritz Lang

#62 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:22 pm

The first silent feature I ever saw was in a college film class. It was Sunrise and even an idiot like me could tell it was brilliant. If I'd been shown Metropolis first, I don't know, I think I'd have held it at arm's length as a relic in a way I intuitively didn't with the Murnau

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Re: Fritz Lang

#63 Post by denti alligator » Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:25 pm

When I first taught German film (undergrad course for majors and minors in German) I was reprimanded by my predecessor in the department for not including Metropolis. I said, sorry, it’s not that great, and I’d rather make room for The Oyster Princess. The reaction to this choice, in particular (but also the exclusion of Metropolis) was greeted with such derision that I was grateful I didn’t mention it in the interview for the job.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#64 Post by senseabove » Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:43 pm

I think the allure of the "lost film"—the whole romantic story of finding it in a janitor's closet in Brazil or wherever it was, neglected in its time and rediscovered as a masterpiece in its complete, original form—is also an easy sell to the casuals. But yeah, Metropolis wouldn't even be in my top 20 Lang, while Die Niebelungen is one of 4 or 5 that I'd call my favorite Lang on any given day, and Spione and Mabuse are both much better silent Lang.

While I'm here: I was planning on finally getting around to The 1,000 Eyes... for the 60s list. Would it be a good idea to rewatch either or both of the previous Mabuses beforehand, or is it fairly standalone?

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Re: Fritz Lang

#65 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:00 pm

I think if you remember the central conceit of an omnipresent crime boss, you'll be fine

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Re: Fritz Lang

#66 Post by mizo » Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:01 pm

senseabove wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:43 pm
While I'm here: I was planning on finally getting around to The 1,000 Eyes... for the 60s list. Would it be a good idea to rewatch either or both of the previous Mabuses beforehand, or is it fairly standalone?
It's very much a standalone story (explaining how and why before you've seen it would be an international crime on the scale of Mabuse's antics). If anything, not re-watching the earlier entries might just make you less sensitive to the plot elements that are copy-pasted from Testament

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Re: Fritz Lang

#67 Post by colinr0380 » Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:01 am

I can understand the championing of Metropolis. Its themes may be obvious but its still thrilling and influential on sci-fi. Metropolis is the only silent Lang that has shown on UK television in the last thirty years at least, and only then in its Giorgio Moroder remix version, both times in sci-fi seasons (Channel 4's New Nightmares season in 1993, and the same channels "Sci-FI Weekend" in 1995. That 1993 screening was actually the first silent film I ever saw!). I know Eureka have been doing a sterling job of getting the rest of Lang silents out there on disc but every other film they release is quite dwarfed by the number of reissues that Metropolis has had up to its final restoration when it was screened on the Brandenberg gate in Berlin!

So its understandable that it would be an obvious choice for those just getting introduced to Lang (or for presenters of discussion programmes to gravitate towards), even if films like M and Dr Mabuse are richer or more spectacular.

There have been Lang films shown on the television since then of course but the last big season (and last time that any of the pre-Hollywood work aired) was on BBC2 in 1998, which showed M, The Testament of Dr Mabuse, Moonfleet and Western Union.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#68 Post by Mr Sausage » Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:46 pm

I knew of Metropolis as a pre-teen because for some reason it was always mentioned in discussions of German Expressionism along with Nosferatu and Caligari (despite not being expressionist, if I recall). I think its modern reputation is bound up with those two, ie. as another example of crazy German cinema of the fantastic that's full of notable iconography. Whenever expressionism is mentioned, in books or tv or online videos, Metropolis reliably comes up. I've even seen it used in memes.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#69 Post by pistolwink » Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:34 am

Metropolis has consistently been in the public eye in a way none of Lang's other silents haven't. When I was a kid the Moroder version was released in theaters, the film was cited in Madonna music videos, etc. Students who otherwise know nothing about silent films have at least vaguely heard of it or seen clips/gifs.

It's a great movie but like seemingly everyone else here, there are a few Lang silents I prefer, especially the crime films. The problem with teaching any of those is that they are so damn long. Metropolis—at least before the latest restoration—is just short enough to squeeze into a 2 or 2 1/2-hour screening block.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#70 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:41 am

My favourite use of Metropolis in film is when the robot sequence turns up on the couple's TV on movie night at the beginning of Shinya Tsukamoto's Tokyo Fist as a shorthand for the flawed notion of the idealised, created woman that the film will go on to explore.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#71 Post by Orlac » Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:17 am

Never Cursed wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:11 pm
Speaking as someone who suffered through some bad Intro to Film classes not long ago, yeah, Metropolis is used a lot as an introduction to silents on the grounds that it's a genre film and thus more immediately approachable to people who like sci-fi but would be put off by (invariably there's some discussion of the film's influence on Star Wars). I've always thought this was a stupid rationale, particularly when there exist no end of great silent comedy stuff that is so much more immediately enjoyable.

And I coincidentally watched the Moroder Metropolis not too long ago - a fascinating idea, but it's one of the worst films I've ever seen; I cannot caution hard enough against it.
I saw the Moroder version when I was 10, and well, I've been a Bonnie Tyler fan ever since.

Just as well, as the only alternative on UK VHS in the 90s was Eureka's terrible "139min director's cut" - in other words a heavily cut print played in super-slow-motion with a soundtrack seemingly comprised of elevator music.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#72 Post by Orlac » Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:19 am

colinr0380 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:41 am
My favourite use of Metropolis in film is when the robot sequence turns up on the couple's TV on movie night at the beginning of Shinya Tsukamoto's Tokyo Fist as a shorthand for the flawed notion of the idealised, created woman that the film will go on to explore.
I like to think the final shot of Peter Cushing in Star Wars is a reference to a shot of Joh Fredersen in Metropolis just before the city breaks down.

The same year's Doctor Who story The Sunmakers (which is mostly a rant against the Inland Revenue filmed in a tobacco factory) has a few references to Metropolis. There's a funny anecdote that director Pennant Roberts directed the extras to look suitably downtrodden by advising them to observe the real factory workers!

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Re: Fritz Lang

#73 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:20 pm

I had not made that Peter Cushing pensive look in Star Wars connection before to the patriarch looking out of his window as everything goes dark in Metropolis, but that's a great connection!
domino harvey wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:48 pm
This week’s In Our Time episode is about Lang. Had to laugh at Bragg trying to initially set up an emphasis on Metropolis and all the Lang experts pivoting to M instead (as you’d expect). Good discussions mainly of those two, the Big Heat, Fury, the first Mabuse, Hangmen Also Die, and an ending debate on Beyond a Reasonable Doubt’s merits
I have finally managed to listen to this episode now and it was very interesting. Beyond Bragg's introduction and getting one of the guests to describe the plot (which doesn't happen with any of the other films!), Metropolis does not get too much focus beyond a listing of all of its themes ("fairy tale, Biblical, sci-fi...it was just too much movie for audiences") and that along with Murnau's Faust its box office failure brought UFA to its knees. I liked the discussion of M, although I could have done without all the comments on how plump and fat, and therefore unassuming and overlooked in his apparent sweaty pudginess (especially in his hands) that Peter Lorre was, though that did lead to the really nice pointing up of Lorre's bare wringing hands as he wrestles with his overwhelming urges contrasted with the gang leader's leather clad and often pointing (when not splayed out over maps of the city of Berlin) hands that suggests a more conscious and premeditated and coordinated horror. For all of the emphasis on the first shot on the shadow across the missing child poster as the unseen killer picks up another victim, I also would have liked the moment in the film when after the first half hour Lorre finally appears on screen making faces in the mirror before they become a frozen rictus of madness as the playacting becomes too revealing even to the man himself to have been discussed at least once!

It was interesting to hear one of the guests spending a bit of time talking about Hangmen Also Die, mostly relating the behind the scenes troubles with Bertolt Brecht's clashes with Lang over the script than anything too thematic. I did think they missed a trick in not equating the obvious 'fakeness' of the themes here to the later discussion of the 'flaws' in Beyond A Reasonable Doubt as something that might have been a conscious approach rather than a terrible flaw in Lang's filmmaking skills (I would say it is less 'fakeness' but more a healthy dose of cynicism!), although two separate guests talked about each of those issues separately so maybe the correlation did not get made because of that.

In terms of other German émigré filmmakers at the time who were not mentioned in the discussion, I wondered if Robert Siodmak and Edgar G. Ulmer would have been good contrasting comparisons?

I was particularly interested in the final section on the legacy of Lang on other filmmakers that came afterwards. Michael Mann was an interesting name thrown out there, although I wonder if he may have been more influenced by other more romantic German Expressionist filmmakers such as Murnau or Pabst rather than the rather precise and austere Lang? David Fincher was an interesting figure to compare Lang too, although not just in the interest in crime stories but also in the sheer preciseness of construction of shots and camera movements. Which itself reminded me of that Claude Chabrol 'remake' of a scene of M on the Criterion disc where in his introduction to it Chabrol talked of how he realised that it was impossible to re-do the scene of the killer being marked and chased without having to precisely follow the timing of camera movements in certain shots in order to achieve the intended psychological effect.

Regarding the Hitchcock versus Lang contrasts that get brought up, just as important as talking about filmmakers it might have also been worth noting those two Michael Douglas starring remakes that came out in recent years that might make for an interesting compare and contrast experience in themselves (throw in David Fincher's The Game whilst we are at it!): the remake of Dial M For Murder in 1998's A Perfect Murder; and the remake of Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in 2009! (And whilst on Beyond A Reasonable Doubt, I wonder if it had any influence at all on Sam Fuller's Shock Corridor?)

Whilst it was nice to have a lot of focus on Dr Mabuse, The Gambler I was rather surprised that there was no mention at all of Testament of Dr Mabuse or The 1,000 Eyes of Dr Mabuse charting a kind of through-line in Lang's career (let alone Chabrol's own tribute to the Mabuse canon with 1990's Dr M!). Beyond Metropolis those were the bigger omissions of the discussion. None of the post-Hollywood German films get mentioned at all. Also it was rather surprising that While The City Sleeps was not brought up at all, as that feels like a particularly interesting American companion piece to M, just with the criminal mob replaced with similarly hard-nosed newspapermen!

And whilst his work is often talked of as indebted to Bertolucci, Dreyer and Tarkovsky, I could not help but think whilst listening that it might be just as fruitful to think of Lars von Trier's first feature The Element of Crime through a Lang-ian lens! After all it is about a naive idealist pursuing a serial child murderer who inevitably finds out that his whole methodology of investigation inherited from his revered mentor is flawed (or more correctly, was rather too close to home!) and expands out from just being about a specific crime into implicating an entire European society! And in a Mabuse-touch it is all told by the main character under hypnosis which adds another layer of unreliability to the events being played out!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Fritz Lang

#74 Post by diamonds » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:10 pm

colinr0380 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:20 pm
Michael Mann was an interesting name thrown out there, although I wonder if he may have been more influenced by other more romantic German Expressionist filmmakers such as Murnau or Pabst rather than the rather precise and austere Lang?
Mann's appreciation of The Big Heat (viewable on the Indicator disc) is actually a pretty great interview. Covers a lot of bases in a short amount of time, and he's very enthusiastic about the film and Lang, whom he calls "a great master"!

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Re: Fritz Lang

#75 Post by Sloper » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:33 am

Orlac wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:17 am
I saw the Moroder version when I was 10, and well, I've been a Bonnie Tyler fan ever since.

Just as well, as the only alternative on UK VHS in the 90s was Eureka's terrible "139min director's cut" - in other words a heavily cut print played in super-slow-motion with a soundtrack seemingly comprised of elevator music.
That 139-minute Metropolis was my first ever experience of silent film, and it was indeed a nightmare – I still remember the exact running time because I was counting every one of those minutes. I’m pretty sure the music and the slow frame-rate had me screaming out loud by the end.

I then had a similarly bad first experience with a horrible edition of Nosferatu, but eventually saw the light with the Shostakovich-scored Battleship Potemkin. (And this definitely speaks to Never Cursed’s comment above about misguided expectations regarding the accessibility of ‘genre’ films!)

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