swo17 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:58 pm
So this idea wasn't too popular in a poll, but if you'll all humor me, I'm interested in collecting some additional data beyond what's submitted in the 1960s lists.
This survey will not affect the results of the list.
I have summarized as follows the films that placed on at least two top 5s during each annual poll, i.e. the ones most likely to make the final list. As it happened, there were exactly 200 of them:
À bout de souffle (Jean-Luc Godard)
Accident (Joseph Losey)
Adorable menteuse (Michel Deville)
Adua e le compagne (Antonio Pietrangeli)
Alphaville, une étrange aventure de Lemmy Caution (Jean-Luc Godard)
...And the Fifth Horseman Is Fear (Zbyněk Brynych)
Andrei Rublyov (Andrei Tarkovsky)
El ángel exterminador (Luis Buñuel)
L'Année dernière à Marienbad (Alain Resnais)
Antoine et Colette (François Truffaut)
The Apartment (Billy Wilder)
L'Armée des ombres (Jean-Pierre Melville)
Au hasard Balthazar (Robert Bresson)
L'avventura (Michelangelo Antonioni)
The Bad Sleep Well (Akira Kurosawa)
Bande à part (Jean-Luc Godard)
Bariera (Jerzy Skolimowski)
La battaglia di Algeri (Gillo Pontecorvo)
Before Tonight Is Over (Peter Solan)
Belle de jour (Luis Buñuel)
Les Biches (Claude Chabrol)
The Big City (Satyajit Ray)
The Birds (Alfred Hitchcock)
Blow-Up (Michelangelo Antonioni)
Les Bonnes Femmes (Claude Chabrol)
Bonnie and Clyde (Arthur Penn)
Breakaway (Bruce Conner)
Bunny Lake Is Missing (Otto Preminger)
Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo (Sergio Leone)
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (George Roy Hill)
Carnival of Souls (Herk Harvey)
Ce soir ou jamais (Michel Deville)
C'era una volta il West (Sergio Leone)
Charade (Stanley Donen)
A Charlie Brown Christmas (Bill Melendez)
Charulata (Satyajit Ray)
Chimes at Midnight (Orson Welles)
La Chinoise (Jean-Luc Godard)
La Cina è vicina (Marco Bellocchio)
Cléo de 5 à 7 (Agnès Varda)
Closely Watched Trains (Jiří Menzel)
La Collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer)
The Color of Pomegranates (Sergei Parajanov)
A Colt Is My Passport (Takashi Nomura)
The Cremator (Juraj Herz)
Culloden (Peter Watkins)
Daisies (Věra Chytilová)
David Holzman's Diary (Jim McBride)
The Day the Earth Caught Fire (Val Guest)
Death by Hanging (Nagisa Ōshima)
Les Demoiselles de Rochefort (Jacques Demy)
Il deserto rosso (Michelangelo Antonioni)
Deus e o Diabo na Terra do Sol (Glauber Rocha)
2 ou 3 choses que je sais d'elle (Jean-Luc Godard)
Le Deuxième Souffle (Jean-Pierre Melville)
Diamonds of the Night (Jan Němec)
Diaries, Notes and Sketches (Jonas Mekas)
Dillinger è morto (Marco Ferreri)
Divorzio all'italiana (Pietro Germi)
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (Stanley Kubrick)
Dog Star Man (Stan Brakhage)
La dolce vita (Federico Fellini)
Dutchman (Anthony Harvey)
Easy Rider (Dennis Hopper)
L'eclisse (Michelangelo Antonioni)
L'Enfance nue (Maurice Pialat)
The Fabulous Baron Munchausen (Karel Zeman)
La Femme infidèle (Claude Chabrol)
The Firemen's Ball (Miloš Forman)
The Flicker (Tony Conrad)
Fuego en Castilla (José Val del Omar)
Gare du Nord (Jean Rouch)
Giulietta degli spiriti (Federico Fellini)
The Graduate (Mike Nichols)
Il grande silenzio (Sergio Corbucci)
Harakiri (Masaki Kobayashi)
A Hard Day's Night (Richard Lester)
Hatari! (Howard Hawks)
The Haunting (Robert Wise)
Help! (Richard Lester)
High and Low (Akira Kurosawa)
High School (Frederick Wiseman)
A High Wind in Jamaica (Alexander Mackendrick)
Hour of the Wolf (Ingmar Bergman)
The House Is Black (Forough Farrokhzād)
Hud (Martin Ritt)
The Hustler (Robert Rossen)
I fidanzati (Ermanno Olmi)
If.... (Lindsay Anderson)
The Immortal Story (Orson Welles)
In Harm's Way (Otto Preminger)
Innocent Sorcerers (Andrzej Wajda)
The Innocents (Jack Clayton)
The Insect Woman (Shōhei Imamura)
Ivan's Childhood (Andrei Tarkovsky)
Je t'aime, je t'aime (Alain Resnais)
La Jetée (Chris Marker)
Judex (Georges Franju)
Jules et Jim (François Truffaut)
The Knack...and How to Get It (Richard Lester)
Kwaidan (Masaki Kobayashi)
The Ladies Man (Jerry Lewis)
Late Autumn (Yasujirō Ozu)
Léon Morin, prêtre (Jean-Pierre Melville)
Letter Never Sent (Mikhail Kalatozov)
Lilith (Robert Rossen)
Lolita (Stanley Kubrick)
Loves of a Blonde (Miloš Forman)
Ma nuit chez Maud (Éric Rohmer)
Il magnifico cornuto (Antonio Pietrangeli)
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (John Ford)
The Manchurian Candidate (John Frankenheimer)
Marketa Lazarová (František Vláčil)
Marnie (Alfred Hitchcock)
La maschera del demonio (Mario Bava)
Masculin féminin (Jean-Luc Godard)
The Masque of the Red Death (Roger Corman)
Medea (Pier Paolo Pasolini)
Le Mépris (Jean-Luc Godard)
Midnight Cowboy (John Schlesinger)
Il momento della verità (Francesco Rosi)
Mothlight (Stan Brakhage)
Mouchette (Robert Bresson)
La muerte de un burócrata (Tomás Gutiérrez Alea)
Muriel ou le temps d'un retour (Alain Resnais)
The Naked Kiss (Samuel Fuller)
Night of the Living Dead (George A. Romero)
La notte (Michelangelo Antonioni)
One Plus One (Jean-Luc Godard)
One-Eyed Jacks (Marlon Brando)
8½ (Federico Fellini)
Pale Flower (Masahiro Shinoda)
Les Parapluies de Cherbourg (Jacques Demy)
Paris nous appartient (Jacques Rivette)
Pas de deux (Norman McLaren)
Passenger (Andrzej Munk & Witold Lesiewicz)
The Passion of Anna (Ingmar Bergman)
Peeping Tom (Michael Powell)
Per qualche dollaro in più (Sergio Leone)
Persona (Ingmar Bergman)
Petulia (Richard Lester)
Pierrot le fou (Jean-Luc Godard)
Plácido (Luis García Berlanga)
PlayTime (Jacques Tati)
Porcile (Pier Paolo Pasolini)
Il posto (Ermanno Olmi)
Pretty Poison (Noel Black)
La Prise de pouvoir par Louis XIV (Roberto Rossellini)
Profound Desires of the Gods (Shōhei Imamura)
Psycho (Alfred Hitchcock)
Que la bête meure (Claude Chabrol)
The Red and the White (Miklós Jancsó)
Red Beard (Akira Kurosawa)
Repulsion (Roman Polański)
Rocco e i suoi fratelli (Luchino Visconti)
Rosemary's Baby (Roman Polanski)
The Round-Up (Miklós Jancsó)
Le Samouraï (Jean-Pierre Melville)
The Saragossa Manuscript (Wojciech Has)
Seconds (John Frankenheimer)
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (Sergei Parajanov)
Shame (Ingmar Bergman)
The Shooting (Monte Hellman)
The Shop on Main Street (Ján Kadár & Elmar Klos)
The Silence (Ingmar Bergman)
Simón del desierto (Luis Buñuel)
Il sorpasso (Dino Risi)
Soy Cuba (Mikhail Kalatozov)
The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (Martin Ritt)
Sweet Charity (Bob Fosse)
Taste of Fear (Seth Holt)
The Taste of Mackerel Pike (Yasujirō Ozu)
Teorema (Pier Paolo Pasolini)
Thérèse Desqueyroux (Georges Franju)
They Shoot Horses, Don't They? (Sydney Pollack)
Through a Glass Darkly (Ingmar Bergman)
Tokyo Olympiad (Kon Ichikawa)
The Trial (Orson Welles)
Le Trou (Jacques Becker)
2001: A Space Odyssey (Stanley Kubrick)
Une femme est une femme (Jean-Luc Godard)
Il vangelo secondo Matteo (Pier Paolo Pasolini)
El verdugo (Luis García Berlanga)
Victim (Basil Dearden)
The Virgin Spring (Ingmar Bergman)
Viridiana (Luis Buñuel)
Vivre sa vie (Jean-Luc Godard)
La Voie lactée (Luis Buñuel)
War and Peace (Sergei Bondarchuk)
Week-End (Jean-Luc Godard)
What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? (Robert Aldrich)
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (Mike Nichols)
The Wild Bunch (Sam Peckinpah)
Winter Light (Ingmar Bergman)
The Witchfinder General (Michael Reeves)
Woman in the Dunes (Hiroshi Teshigahara)
Yearning (Mikio Naruse)
Les Yeux sans visage (Georges Franju)
Yōjimbō (Akira Kurosawa)
Z (Costa-Gavras)
For anyone who is game, I have created the poll linked below to allow you to rank as many of these films as you like, in order of preference, beyond the ones that you like enough to already make your top 50. If you hate one of these films, I guess the best way to reflect that is to rank as many other films as possible above it. Again, this poll is optional and will have no bearing on the official results of the 1960s list.
1960s CONTENDERS POLL
I finally got around to processing all of the additional information that several of you provided earlier this year. Playing around with the results I came up with the following alternative top 100 for the 1960s which maximizes the power of every submitted vote. The basic idea is that every top 50 submitted potentially contains numerous "wasted" votes in terms of affecting the final list. For instance, if someone votes for 50 obscure favorites that all end up orphans, that person effectively has no say on the final top 100. But if I conduct multiple rounds of voting, each time eliminating "wasted votes," shifting all other films on that list up, and then padding out the remainder of that top 50 with ranked choices from the "contenders" list, that person can then have an influence on which contenders ultimately make the list and where. I've actually done several iterations of this for different sections of the top 100 for the 1960s. For instance, the last 20 or so entries on the top 100 assume that no one "wastes votes" on anything other than the 130 films that received the most support, while the top 10 positions eliminate all "wasted votes" beyond the 12 films with the most support. So at every point on the list, as much as possible, I've attempted to reflect as much information as I can about each participants' preferences.
Next to each film below I've shown how many votes got added from the contenders poll as well as the change in ranking compared to the published list based on the traditional tally approach. You can tell the final results are more reflective of more participants' tastes because most films now have more votes (and if they don't, they've probably moved down in position).
THE 1960s LIST - ALTERNATIVE TALLY
01. Persona (5 more votes,
+2)
02. 2001: A Space Odyssey (3 more votes,
-1)
03. Psycho (4 more votes,
+1)
04. L'Année dernière à Marienbad (5 more votes,
+1)
05. The Apartment (4 more votes,
-3)
06. L'avventura (7 more votes,
+4)
07. C'era una volta il West (4 more votes, same position)
08. 8½ (4 more votes, same position)
09. PlayTime (8 more votes,
+5)
10. Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (4 more votes,
-4)
11. La dolce vita (4 more votes,
-2)
12. Le Trou (5 more votes,
+5)
13. Andrei Rublyov (3 more votes,
-2)
14. High and Low (5 more votes,
-1)
15. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (5 more votes,
+4)
16. Ma nuit chez Maud (7 more votes,
+9)
17. L'eclisse (8 more votes,
+6)
18. Blow-Up (5 more votes,
+20)
19. Les Demoiselles de Rochefort (3 more votes,
-7)
(tie) Harakiri (8 more votes,
+23)
21. Rosemary's Baby (6 more votes,
+3)
22. La Jetée (4 more votes,
-2)
23. À bout de souffle (6 more votes,
+3)
24. Seconds (6 more votes,
+12)
25. The Birds (4 more votes,
+9)
26. Il deserto rosso (3 more votes,
-8)
27. The Graduate (5 more votes,
-6)
28. Marketa Lazarová (2 more votes,
-12)
29. Pierrot le fou (2 more votes,
-14)
30. El ángel exterminador (6 more votes,
+20)
31. Le Mépris (5 more votes,
+6)
32. Z (4 more votes,
+1)
33. Woman in the Dunes (2 more votes,
-6)
34. Petulia (2 more votes,
-4)
35. Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo (4 more votes,
-4)
36. The Cremator (1 more vote,
-15)
37. The Trial (no more votes,
-9)
(tie) Giulietta degli spiriti (1 more vote,
-8)
39. The Manchurian Candidate (8 more votes,
+7)
40. They Shoot Horses, Don't They? (1 more vote,
+11)
41. The Color of Pomegranates (1 more vote, same position)
42. Yearning (4 more votes,
+19)
43. Late Autumn (2 more votes,
-5)
44. Week End (1 more vote,
-12)
45. The Wild Bunch (2 more votes,
-1)
46. La battaglia di Algeri (4 more votes,
-6)
(tie) Letter Never Sent (6 more votes,
+21)
48. Simón del desierto (6 more votes,
+22)
49. Au hasard Balthazar (3 more votes,
-14)
50. Masculin féminin (2 more votes,
-7)
51. Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (1 more vote,
+3)
52. Le Samouraï (5 more votes,
+3)
53. Soy Cuba (6 more votes,
+20)
54. La notte (1 more vote,
-9)
55. Winter Light (5 more votes,
+17)
56. The Red and the White (2 more votes,
-4)
(tie) Diamonds of the Night (2 more votes, same position)
58. Daisies (1 more vote,
-10)
59. The Big City (4 more votes,
+23)
60. Death by Hanging (3 more votes,
-3)
61. Rocco e i suoi fratelli (4 more votes,
+2)
62. A Hard Day's Night (3 more votes,
-15)
63. The Round-Up (1 more vote,
+29)
64. Point Blank (no more votes,
-6)
65. Through a Glass Darkly (3 more votes,
-5)
(tie) Charulata (1 more vote,
-12)
67. The Hustler (2 more votes,
+7)
68. Jules et Jim (1 more vote,
-6)
69. Les Bonnes Femmes (1 more vote,
-21)
70. Midnight Cowboy (3 more votes,
+10)
71. Diaries, Notes and Sketches (2 more votes,
+4)
72. Marnie (4 more votes,
+29)
73. The Taste of Mackerel Pike (1 more vote,
-14)
74. The Shooting (1 more vote,
-6)
75. Ivan's Childhood (6 more votes,
+20)
76. La Collectionneuse (2 more votes,
-1)
(tie) Chimes at Midnight (2 more votes,
+8)
78. Il sorpasso (no more votes,
+17)
79. L'Armée des ombres (1 more vote,
-14)
(tie) I fidanzati (no more votes,
-4)
81. Repulsion (1 more vote,
-1)
82. Cléo de 5 à 7 (2 more votes,
-12)
83. Night of the Living Dead (4 more votes,
+24)
(tie) Belle de jour (2 more votes,
-4)
85. Bonnie and Clyde (2 more votes,
+10)
86. The Virgin Spring (2 more votes,
-17)
87. Le Bonheur (no more votes,
-21)
88. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (2 more votes,
+1)
(tie) The Servant (no more votes,
+16)
90. Vivre sa vie (2 more votes,
-4)
(tie) Breakaway (1 more vote,
+2)
(tie) The Firemen's Ball (2 more votes,
+13)
93. Pale Flower (2 more votes,
+33)
94. Le Deuxième Souffle (3 more votes,
+26)
95. Muriel ou le temps d'un retour (1 more vote,
-12)
96. Closely Watched Trains (3 more votes,
+26)
97. Charade (3 more votes,
-13)
(tie) Lawrence of Arabia (no more votes,
-33)
99. Profound Desires of the Gods (1 more vote,
+6)
100. Shame (2 more votes,
+25)
PUSHED OFF THE LIST:
Les Parapluies de Cherbourg (was 78)
Funeral Parade of Roses (was 86)
Viridiana (was 86)
Eros + Massacre (was 89)
L'Enfance nue (was 91)
The Silence (was 94)
Elmer Gantry (was 98)
Il grande silenzio (was 98)
Zazie dans le métro (was 100)
Some other comments:
[*]
Persona taking over the #1 spot generally results from that film appearing higher up on more contender lists than
2001. The implication is that quite a few more people had the Bergman film just missing their original top 50 while the Kubrick didn't have as much support outside of the people that included it in their original top 50.
[*] It may seem counterintuitive that
Il sorpasso and
The Servant moved up the list despite receiving no additional support in the contender poll. However, this can come about if someone originally voted for that film low on their top 50 below a lot of orphans. After removing all the "wasted votes" and moving things up, this can help a film's score. Essentially, people that had a lot of high-ranking orphans on their original top 50s didn't have as much voting power as others, so giving them that power now causes the contenders that they like to move up more than other films.
[*] There are also a lot of films that have more votes now but have moved down in position. I don't know if this is counterintuitive to anyone, but it generally happens because not every new vote is worth as much as others, among other things going on.
[*]
Funeral Parade of Roses,
Eros + Massacre,
Elmer Gantry, and
Zazie dans le métro were at a disadvantage in this process because they were not on the list of contenders, which had included every film that appeared on at least two top 5s during the individual year mini-lists. This is presumably because several people that voted for these films during the overall decade list did not participate in the individual year mini-lists. (Around 20 people have generally been participating in these lists compared to 34 participants in the overall 1960s list.) Otherwise, every film that proved to be a contender to make the final top 100 had been included on the contenders list.
[*] Other than the issue just described above, my process should theoretically be equivalent to running multiple rounds of a project, each time limiting which films you can vote for to the ones that have received the most support from others until finally getting down to a top 10 or whatever. In real life this might look like:
Round 1 -- Vote for the top 50 films out of all films from the decade. I publish the orphans.
Round 2 -- We've been doing this for a while as the "orphan rescue" round. You may want to revise your list at the end if you discover and decide to "rescue" someone else's orphan (or for any other reason).
Round 3 -- Vote for up to 50 films out of a list of ~200 films in contention for the final top 100. (A lot of this ballot might already be populated from the Round 1 vote, but with perhaps 5-10 films removed and the ability to expand your list back to 50.)
Round 4 -- Vote for up to 50 films out of this list of ~175.
Round 5 -- Vote for up to 50 films out of this list of ~150.
Round 6 -- Vote for up to 50 films out of this list of ~125.
Round 7 -- Vote for up to 50 films out of this list of ~100.
Round 8 -- Vote for up to 50 films out of this list of ~75.
Round 9 -- Rank this list of ~50 in order. (It wouldn't be necessary to vote for any films you didn't want to receive points.)
Round 10 -- Rank this list of ~25 in order.
Round 11 -- Rank this list of ~10 in order.
You could do less rounds than this but the longer you draw it out the better chance lower-ranking films have of finally getting enough support to avoid premature elimination.
Probably some people would not have the patience to go through all these rounds, but they would each be optional. You might go through a few of them and then decide you don't care anymore. Actually, every film you have already voted for would count in subsequent rounds (unless that film has been eliminated due to not having enough support from others). The whole point of submitting a new vote in a new round then would be to allow you to fill out the bottom of your list with films you had not already voted for, to the extent that you have room to do so after more and more films are eliminated each round. Adding these votes to the bottom of your list in subsequent rounds allows you to express whether certain films that didn't originally make your top 50 just barely missed out, whether you approve of them performing well even if they're not quite personal favorites, or whether you despise them (in which case you may not want to assign them any points even if you have room to do so).
[*] The alternative to having people actually vote in numerous rounds is for me to perform those rounds myself based on the results of a contender poll. However, this is not necessarily less work for participants than having multiple rounds of voting would be. The contender list for the 1960s was 200 titles long and there were some people that ranked nearly all of them for the contender poll! However, by the time I got that far down on those contender ballots, the majority of the films being voted for had already been eliminated in prior rounds. Ultimately, participants might only need to vote for 25-50 more films under the multi-round approach to have a full say on the final list as opposed to 150-200 under the contender poll approach.
[*] Obviously I find these kinds of statistics fascinating, so I'm happy to keep tabulating them to the extent that people are willing to provide me with the data necessary to do so. This alternative tally approach could remain just that, an alternative, or it could perhaps replace the traditional tally approach if enough people want that. Or it could also die on the vine if no one wants to do a contender poll again. I'm here for whatever.
[*] Perhaps what I'm describing is too complicated for some of you, which is fine. Again, even if we started doing multiple rounds of voting, there would be no need for anyone to do anything more than submit a top 50, if that's all they want to do. Any participation beyond that would simply be to maximize the power of each of your votes. Without naming names, I'll just say there were two participants that submitted 1960s lists that were mostly orphans and only had I think two films each that they originally voted for appear on the final top 100. One of these participants did not participate in the contenders poll while the other submitted a very lengthy contender list. In both cases, each person still ended up with a ton of orphans, but the one that submitted a contender list ended up having some say in the final position of every single title on the alternative tally list above.
[*] For what it's worth, I initially had the idea to perform a tally this way following the contentious results of the last Sight & Sound poll, where a fair number of participants disagreed with some of the films that placed the highest. I continue to suspect that instituting multiple rounds would improve any voting system's ability to represent its participants' preferences (ranked-choice voting anyone?). For comparison purposes, here is how our 1960s list might have looked under the S&S approach, if I make the crude assumption that an all-time top 10 might correspond to a top 1 for a decade:
01. 2001: A Space Odyssey (4)
02. À bout de souffle (2)
(tie) L'Année dernière à Marienbad
(tie) The Apartment
(tie) Marketa Lazarová
(tie) Week End
(tie) The Wild Bunch
Not a bad list actually, but it only barely hints at a consensus of our collective tastes