Forthcoming Criterion & Eclipse List Discussion

[oldsheperd]

Let's not forget Nazarin.

[tryavna]

Ensayo de un crimen (1955)
Wuthering Heights (1954)
La Ilusión viaja en tranvía (1954)
El (1953)
Bruto, El (1953)
Subida al cielo (1952)
Susana (1951)
Olvidados, Los (1950)

IMHO, this represents the greatest five-year run by a director ever. They can be tracked down via various shitty transfers from Mexico, France and Facets, but a Criterion box would give everybody a chance to see that Bunuel's Mexican studio films are at least the equal (and I say superior) to his later Euro-financed productions.

Also, we have no subtitled dvd of Las Hurdes, which prefigures Bunuel's feature output to a far greater degree than Un Chien Andalou or L'Age d'or.

Doesn't the Australian R4 of Un Chien also contain a subbed version of Las Hurdes? (It's also pretty easy to find the inferior English dub of Las Hurdes. It was available on YouTube for a while.)

I agree with the thrust of your argument here, Gringo. However, all eight of those films do exist in acceptable (if not overly so) English-subbed DVDs. I'd rather see the remaining six or seven titles that do not get released first. (I.e., we're so close to having Bunuel's entire oeuvre available....)

[Perkins Cobb]

Hey, "shelf-emptying" works for me ... judging from Eclipse so far, I'd much rather get all that stuff they licensed and got bored with than some of the wacky new stuff they've been throwing into the Criterion brand.

[Thomas J.]

In light of the continual influx of Ozu films to the market, my problem with Criterion these days is not the rate at which they release films by a single filmmaker within a relatively condensed time period. It's that they month after month insist on solidifying a hegemony of cinema history through constant embrace of canonical cinema. It's disturbing because Criterion has the air of a DVD distributor that reaches outside of normal Film History 101 bounds to expose other non-canonical, but no less worthwhile films -- which really isn't the case, thus doubly affecting hegemony. I mean, time and again, they release movies from North America, Western Europe and Japan -- and only talkies at that. Sure, there's the occasional anomaly, but they stand as statistical outliers that shed light through counterpoint on what's really going on.

Take this newest crop of announcements: let's see -- we have Japan and France. Check, check. What a surprise! That's the predictability of it all, I agree.

Yes, the Eclipse line has somewhat helped to rectify this problem, but installments such as Late Ozu and Early Bergman serve to undermine the purpose of the line. And now comes word that in actuality Eclipse is just Criterion's "Afterthought" line.

It's not as if there's a dearth of rich cinematic legacy elsewhere around the world to draw upon and cater to: Hungary, Iran, Israel, Yiddish... There's got to be an audience for these cinemas given that their legacies, among many others, are quite deeply rooted, however overlooked -- nay, "eclipsed" -- they might be.

[starmanof51]

I mean, time and again, they release movies from North America, Western Europe and Japan -- and only talkies at that.

Jerks.

It's not as if there's a dearth of rich cinematic legacy elsewhere around the world to draw upon and cater to: Hungary, Iran, Israel, Yiddish... There's got to be an audience for these cinemas given that their legacies, among many others, are quite deeply rooted, however overlooked -- nay, "eclipsed" -- they might be.

Sorry to be snippy, but man is this tired. If they (or one of the other of several dozen companies you aren't calling out) are missing a moneymaking niche, feel free to jump in with your own DVD publishing company. No one's stopping you. They have a backlog as it is and zero responsibility to be the United Nations of Cinema.

[Jeff]

Sorry to be snippy, but man is this tired. If they (or one of the other of several dozen companies you aren't calling out) are missing a moneymaking niche, feel free to jump in with your own DVD publishing company. No one's stopping you. They have a backlog as it is and zero responsibility to be the United Nations of Cinema.

I have to concur with starman. I would love to see a broader reach too, and Criterion obliges from time to time. Criterion is a for profit corporation though, and canonical European and Japanese cinema and mainstream arthouse fair are their bread and butter. Obscure films from lesser-known national cinemas lose money. Plain and simple.

[Tribe]

solidifying a hegemony of cinema history

How is this better than just writing "I want to see movies from other countries?"

[Thomas J.]

Criterion is a for profit corporation though, and canonical European and Japanese cinema and mainstream arthouse fair are their bread and butter. Obscure films from lesser-known national cinemas lose money. Plain and simple.

Yes, totally understood. And because of this, Criterion really shouldn't be held in such high esteem; ergo, people should get comfortable with their predictable choices for release and release patterns.

As for why I didn't call out the "other" DVD distributors i.e. Criterion's competition -- the reason is right there in my post. It's because they don't have the reputation nor adoring even sycophantic fanbase that Criterion has. That's a major component of my argument. To miss that is to miss the point.

Really, my beef isn't with Criterion per se but with the reputation that consumers have built for Criterion, which isn't the company's fault. Yes, what they release is great when taken on its own terms, but it is only what it is -- canonical cinema.

So yes, I guess I should have been more precise with my crosshairs.

[domino harvey]

Wait, are you trying to say that a business won't release a product for which there is no market, but they will release a product for which there is a market? Why isn't this stunning revelation at the top of Drudge right now with siren gifs on either side?!!?

[kaujot]

Yes, what they release is great when taken on its own terms, but it is only what it is -- canonical cinema.

I'd say they have plenty of "non-canonical" films. Walker, Two-Lane Blacktop, Fishing with John, the Morrissey pictures, The Blob, the Robinson pictures, The Last Wave, Martha Graham, The Monsters and Madmen set, Koko, etc., etc.

But I'm willing to bet that the reissues of The Seven Samurai, and, say Amarcord and The Third Man have come close to outselling most of those listed combined, if not all.

[Thomas J.]

Wait, are you trying to say that a business won't release a product for which there is no market, but they will release a product for which there is a market? Why isn't this stunning revelation at the top of Drudge right now with siren gifs on either side?!!?

Actually, no...not at all. Funny to hear you of all posters make this sarcastic remark when I was kind of addressing your call for a less predictable release pattern. I'm saying at this point, such a release pattern shouldn't be a surprise at all. So why are people complaining about more Ozu? They knew it was coming, and quickly.

[starmanof51]

Really, my beef isn't with Criterion per se but with the reputation that consumers have built for Criterion, which isn't the company's fault.

So - to really dial this in - your beef is that many (boy is that relative) consumers attach to Criterion a reputation of quality? Not with anything they do or don't do but how they are perceived by filmgeeks?

I'm saying at this point, such a release pattern shouldn't be a surprise at all. So why are people complaining about more Ozu? They knew it was coming, and quickly.

Well I do tend to agree with that.

[domino harvey]

My point wasn't that they released titles that everyone knew were coming, it was that they only released titles that everyone knew were coming. There's a difference between calling for an unpredictable title and calling for a film about goats from the United Arab Emirates to enter the collection.

[PimpPanda]

I think a release of Out 1 would solve everything, and maybe some Yang films too.

[zedz]

Psst - there are already umpteen pages devoted to this very discussion. So far, Criterion haven't altered their business model in response, but don't let that discourage you.

[Tribe]

Psst - there are already umpteen pages devoted to this very discussion. So far, Criterion haven't altered their business model in response, but don't let that discourage you.

True, but I think this is the first thread that touched on goats from the UAE.

[Cinephrenic]

If any, they are sure part of the banquet in some of those 7 star hotels over at Dubai.

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

I think a release of Out 1 would solve everything, and maybe some Yang films too.

Ha ha - it just about would solve it.

[chaddoli]

My point wasn't that they released titles that everyone knew were coming, it was that they only released titles that everyone knew were coming. There's a difference between calling for an unpredictable title and calling for a film about goats from the United Arab Emirates to enter the collection.

I really can't get over this part. Our knowing of upcoming releases is our own fault. We are not supposed to know about most of these releases. Criterion gives us a coming soon page and a newsletter. We have many additional avenues to find out about upcoming releases. This isn't Criterion's fault. Maybe you should start ignoring the Forthcoming thread, and you'd be happy.

It's not Criterion's job to consistently surprise the members of criterionforum.org.

[Morgan Creek]

It's not Criterion's job to consistently surprise the members of criterionforum.org.

Well said, chaddoli. I feel the same about complaints regarding Criterion releases that are already available in R2. While I'd certainly rather see them do editions of films I don't already own, there are, shocking as it may be, consumers who don't have all-region players and would still like to own, say, the Ophuls.

[Thomas J.]

My point wasn't that they released titles that everyone knew were coming, it was that they only released titles that everyone knew were coming. There's a difference between calling for an unpredictable title and calling for a film about goats from the United Arab Emirates to enter the collection.

Zing! Nice way to stereotype Middle Eastern cinema. This is a perfect example of how the forum is "frequently academic," I suppose (your words).

Anyway, I have no problem with the Ozu release. I got over Criterion's choices for release a long time ago. Jeff succinctly and maturely explained why. Domino, you want some unpredictable titles to be released, but by your own admission, those same titles can't be released because there's no market for them. How do you reconcile your contradiction? Unless your categorization of an unpredictable title would be something I would consider predictable -- only then does your logic hold up under scrutiny.

Ok I'm done with this topic...I just don't understand why some of you guys complain about Criterion's predictability, as if you expect something above and beyond the predictable.

[Tommaso]

Let's face it: CC has a stance towards 'world cinema' which for them means what is rightly or wrongly dubbed the 'western world', i.e. the US, Europe and Japan. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but that's what you can expect from them. But even inside these perhaps too narrow fringes, there would be room for complete unpredictability. Silents of all sorts (which can't sell THAT bad, otherwise Kino would have been bankrupt years ago), pre '33 German sound films, new films from Russia (like the Shepitko set, rather surprising in my view), god knows what else.

I have no problem with the Ozu releases either, but share Domino's wish for some genuine surprises, like the Martha Graham set or the Makavejevs. On the other hand, Ozu's, Kuro's or Bergman's films are certainly among the most important of all cinema; so as long as they are not all out somewhere else in good editions, no problem with CC doing them (the Bergman Eclipse set was unnecessary from that point of view, but I'd jump for "Face to Face" any time).

[tryavna]

It's also worth reminding everyone of Criterion's extremely close relationship with Janus. Janus was, at least to a certain degree, partially responsible for the canonization of the very films that Criterion releases. Considering that Criterion is, in effect, the DVD distribution partner of Janus means that a huge proportion of the films they release are going to be those Janus-owned films. Of course, that doesn't mean that Criterion can't or shouldn't go beyond the Janus library -- and they frequently do. But in all practicality, we should expect lots of canonical films from the Janus library. In a sense, it's a brand identity that Criterion has inherited from Janus.

[Zazou dans le Metro]

My point wasn't that they released titles that everyone knew were coming, it was that they only released titles that everyone knew were coming. There's a difference between calling for an unpredictable title and calling for a film about goats from the United Arab Emirates to enter the collection.

Don't know about goats but aren't there already some drunken horses in the corral?

[LesRoches]

Count me in with the others who are thrilled with the September releases. Between Trafic and Vampyr, and now the Ophuls and An Autumn Afternoon, I'm walking on air.

LesRoches