Criterion and UHD

News on Criterion and Janus Films.
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bluesforyou
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:35 am

Re: Criterion and UHD

#301 Post by bluesforyou » Fri May 29, 2020 12:47 pm

dwk wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:03 pm
Ribs wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:15 am
...
But, yes, if Criterion can’t make the math work for Parasite or the Irishman something seems off.
I think the question with a title like Parasite is that there already is a UHD in the US that is available for at least half what Criterion's MSRP would be, and likely will drop even more in price. So is the UHD market in the US big enough for Criterion to bother with releasing it on UHD? They'd be better off doing Memories of Murder on UHD.
Criterion's plans to release Parasite were announced before Universal decided to do a UHD. They didn't hint that they were going for a UHD which they subsequently had to cancel. There were never any plans in the first place.

What is going to be the point of releasing it on BD at this point either? The film will have had two separate releases already. Any one who is not a Criterion collector will already own the film. In some cases they will already own two copies.

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domino harvey
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#302 Post by domino harvey » Fri May 29, 2020 12:48 pm

Obviously the same appeal as many Criterion releases: the extras

bluesforyou
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:35 am

Re: Criterion and UHD

#303 Post by bluesforyou » Fri May 29, 2020 12:54 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:38 pm
I think Criterion knows the moment they announce a single UHD title, a large contingent of their customers will sit out every subsequent Blu-Ray release waiting for a UHD that’s never coming. I just don’t seem them doing it unless the numbers justify it being policy for all their releases, which I def don’t see happening. But who knows
I don't see why this logic only applies to Criterion while everyone else in the industry is fine releasing a limited number of titles on UHD and are not going bankrupt over it. Even bigger studios aren't afraid of releasing some titles just on BD.

Is the Criterion buyer really so different from the people who buy from every other label? And don't people say that Criterion buyers are not necessarily the most tech competent. People are still buying Criterion DVDs. They aren't holding off for when they get a BD player.

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Cash Flagg
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#304 Post by Cash Flagg » Fri May 29, 2020 1:06 pm

dwk wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:40 pm
I think Blue Underground are pretty committed to UHD, they announced that they are doing either six UHDs over the next eight months or eight UHDs over the next six months.
And Kino has 3 more in the works, as does Vinegar Syndrome.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#305 Post by EddieLarkin » Fri May 29, 2020 1:11 pm

I really don't see how anyone would sit out on a purchase of say, Dance Girl Dance or An Unmarried Woman because they genuinely think it would eventually be upgraded to 4K UHD.

The UHD audience knows and expects that the format will always be reserved for bigger end titles only.

I absolutely can see how someone would sit out on a big hitter Blu-ray only release because they expect another company will eventually release it on UHD (or even simultaneously in a different territory, where of course the disc will be Region free).

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Big Ben
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#306 Post by Big Ben » Fri May 29, 2020 1:13 pm

Is there a breakdown in numbers what format Criterion purchasers favor currently? In the sense that broad basic DVD sales may be influencing Criterion's decisions to add UHD discs to their lineup.

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domino harvey
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#307 Post by domino harvey » Fri May 29, 2020 1:14 pm

Sales are proprietary info, but I believe they’ve said before that overall DVDs still out pace Blus

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dwk
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: Criterion and UHD

#308 Post by dwk » Fri May 29, 2020 1:16 pm

Regarding sales, the last time they answered the question, Blu-rays generally outsold DVDs 60-40. However, the overall market, I think DVD is still outselling Blu-ray.
bluesforyou wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:47 pm

Criterion's plans to release Parasite were announced before Universal decided to do a UHD. They didn't hint that they were going for a UHD which they subsequently had to cancel. There were never any plans in the first place.

What is going to be the point of releasing it on BD at this point either? The film will have had two separate releases already. Any one who is not a Criterion collector will already own the film. In some cases they will already own two copies.
The Blu-ray market is still larger than the UHD market, and will support two Blu-rays.

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Lowry_Sam
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#309 Post by Lowry_Sam » Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm

I wonder to what extent the problem of disc manufacturing in the US plays into the equation.

I could see Criterion releasing UHD-only upgrades for big sellers and high profile titles & fixing problems on or adding substantial material to previous releases, while keeping the dvd/blu releases the same (b&w, 1.33): The Last Emperor (original in correct AOR, extended & 3D), The Great Beauty (original & extended), Brazil... But given that disc production is hampered, it's probably an additional challenge to introduce a change.

onedimension
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#310 Post by onedimension » Fri May 29, 2020 3:01 pm

I'd say they could do, like, a separate line, like maybe 3 or 4 releases a year to keep expectations low.. but The Leopard would be a perfect candidate..

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RSTooley
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#311 Post by RSTooley » Fri May 29, 2020 3:53 pm

I like the idea of owning The Leopard on 4k Blu-ray, but I think they'd start with a title more accessible to the general public. For example, MGM is pretty happy with sub-licensing just about anything, so something like Raging Bull could be a good candidate. There may already be a great Blu-ray of Raging Bull floating around, but there isn't a 4k Blu-ray, and it seems that big name titles sell the best.

Side note: To be clear, I'm not saying Raging Bull will be released in the future, simply that a major title like Raging Bull would likely make it's money back if Criterion were to invest in it.

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#312 Post by dwk » Fri May 29, 2020 4:23 pm

I wouldn't count on any Fox titles, so The Leopard is out. Any US studio titles likely will be limited to MGM or Universal. It wouldn't surprise me if they stuck to the Blue Underground model and issued titles they own, so they have a longer time to make their investment back if sales are sluggish.

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RitrovataBlue
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#313 Post by RitrovataBlue » Fri May 29, 2020 7:58 pm

I understand that there’s a substantially higher overhead for a UHD over a BD, but surely a 4K of Ran or a newly restored The Red Shoes would sell enough to justify the investment. But then, Criterion is seemingly committed to double-dipping as many studio titles on BD as are possible (The Great Escape, All About Eve, etc), so maybe their priorities and my own have less overlap than I would hope...

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Luke M
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#314 Post by Luke M » Sat May 30, 2020 1:36 am

I don't think Criterion would want to just release 3-4 titles a year. That was certainly not the case when they went from DVD to Blu-ray.

Also, I absolutely believe Domino's point stands, especially for a title like recently released Grand Budapest Hotel. I can already imagine at least 3 post daily on r/Criterion of people asking what are the chances x title will be released on 4K. Sure, other labels might not have those problems but that's mostly because there's zero expectations of 4K releases from them.

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Adam X
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#315 Post by Adam X » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:59 pm

I don't know, all you need to do is look at the comments of almost every title announcement sourced from a 4K scan that has even a slightly decent audience, from numerous boutique labels on fb, to see plenty of comments complaining about the lack of a UHD release. Second Sight's Walkabout being the most recent example I've heard of. For those fans of the format (as opposed to the films themselves), it's just the same as when Blu-Ray discs were starting out - plenty of people who suddenly don't want to buy anything but.

black&huge
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#316 Post by black&huge » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:16 am

if Troma ever decides to dip toes in a couple 4K releases then that'll be the point where Criterion will really need to address the issue straight up on the front page of the official site.

So many small labels have at least experimented. Let's not forget not every criterion release had a coinciding blu when they first started doing that in 2008 and basically up until 2010. They experimented with dual format and stopped when it proved a failure so why they couldn't follow the formula both ways for 4K is frustrating.

They have a number of titles to start out with that would be potential big sellers for a somewhat mass audience: The Thin Red Line, any of the Anderson and Lynch releases, Rosemary's Baby.... assuming they can have the rights to do 4k's od those but they got more than enough starter releases.

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tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#317 Post by tenia » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:18 am

Adam Grikepelis wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:59 pm
I don't know, all you need to do is look at the comments of almost every title announcement sourced from a 4K scan that has even a slightly decent audience, from numerous boutique labels on fb, to see plenty of comments complaining about the lack of a UHD release. Second Sight's Walkabout being the most recent example I've heard of. For those fans of the format (as opposed to the films themselves), it's just the same as when Blu-Ray discs were starting out - plenty of people who suddenly don't want to buy anything but.
Sizing the real market is an absolute requirement here considering the very high oncost of UHD over BD (roughly 3-4 times), and using FB or Twitter comments as a metric can be vastly deceiving. I'd be EXTREMELY cautious when it comes to evaluating how this kind of things translates into actual sales. I think it was Le chat qui fume who had people ranting about them not releasing a certain movie. After some time, they caved in, managed to buy the rights and released it, only to do meager sales, because it turned out there weren't many people interested into buying this movie except the 60 persons who wrote those FB comments.

That's why I'm very interested in how many UHDs Vinegar Syndrome and Blue Underground have actually been selling. Especially BU who claims for Maniac and Zombi 2 "the UHDs have already done in pre-order what the new BDs have done so far total", which look insane considering they have released both already 3 times on BD (Zombi 2 having been re-released in 2018 with 3 different slipcovers, at least 1 having sold out), but also what their next titles sales will be because Maniac and Zombi 2 clearly are their cash cows and I doubt any other title will sell anything close to those 2.
black&huge wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:16 am
They have a number of titles to start out with that would be potential big sellers for a somewhat mass audience: The Thin Red Line, any of the Anderson and Lynch releases, Rosemary's Baby...
Considering what I'm seeing in France, these might be "big sellers" for Criterion, but not really for mass audience. Disney/Marvel/Star Wars and big franchises like F&F can sell easily 15k+ UHDs, but when you're looking at the overall French UHD market, this means the average sale figures for everything else hovers around 1500 UHDs. That's a 10 to 1 ratio, and while obviously, some will sell a bit more than this (2-3k UHDs), this means others are selling even less than that (1000 UHDs).
1000 UHDs for a label already only selling 1000 BDs might be fine though, but finer than for a studio used to do 50k+ sales on disc, but it does mean there probably isn't any mass market appeal for these titles.

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Zepfanman
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#318 Post by Zepfanman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:57 am

Criterion's Technical Director of Restoration, Lee Kline, mentioned on a podcast this month that they don't see the value of UHD at this time. I have to agree that the vast majority of customers can't even tell the difference between 4K and Blu-ray quality. It also takes Criterion at least 4-times longer to process 4K content, and they don't have the resources to spend that amount of time on releases. They at least have the 4K digital copies so they can edit and release in UHD in the future, if that ever happens.

This is a great podcast, by the way. Team Deakins "podcast is a conversation between acclaimed cinematographer Roger Deakins and his collaborator, James Deakins." https://teamdeakins.libsyn.com/lee-klin ... n-of-films

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movielocke
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#319 Post by movielocke » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:26 pm

Eh, the first criterion 4K is “obviously” going to be Citizen Kane in November.

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criterionsnob
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#320 Post by criterionsnob » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:35 pm

Thinking about at the New Year’s clue again, there are four box sets. Four boxes obviously must mean 4K releases are starting this year. The Wong Kar Wai box would be an incredible first 4K release.

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soundchaser
Leave Her to Beaver
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#321 Post by soundchaser » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:37 pm

criterionsnob wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:35 pm
Thinking about at the New Year’s clue again, there are four box sets. Four boxes obviously must mean 4K releases are starting this year. The Wong Kar Wai box would be an incredible first 4K release.
Or, perhaps more likely, it means we're getting four filmmaker-themed box sets this year.

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Ribs
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#322 Post by Ribs » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:41 pm

The WKW films are being released in 4K in France, I believe - which could mean something, could just as easily not mean anything. I'd be amused if Chungking Express was among the first batch of UHD releases though as it was for BD!

I'd not exactly sum up Lee Kline's comments in the podcast as Zepfanman does above - he definitely sounds a lot more accepting of the format then he has in the past (he doesn't repeat the fairly erroneous idea that "you can't see the resolution bump without a big TV" that often he has in the past), and he admits that Criterion is "ready" to do releases when they deem it necessary. I'd also point out that a recurring theme of the podcast is that it's not Lee Kline's company and he doesn't make all the decisions and whether or not a release will actually be in 4K shouldn't, in principle, mean anything is different on his end as Criterion still is creating a 4K (sometimes HDR as with Soderbergh's) master or whatever for future use. That's a decision for the disc producers and the like, I would think.

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tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#323 Post by tenia » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:24 pm

AFAIK, only In The Mood for Love is so far being re-released, first theatrically and then on video, but most likely only on BD.

I don't recall having seen any info for the other movies, and most of the early movies were released on BD some years ago by a label (ARP) that I think will never have the finances to invest in WKW UHDs. Moreover, our video market is what it is, and it'd be quite a bet to release such movies on UHD. I guess maybe In the Mood for Love could get an individual UHD release because it has the biggest potential.
Last edited by tenia on Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ribs
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#324 Post by Ribs » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:27 pm

It was actually the Korean release that's in 4K, not the French. Misremembered.

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RitrovataBlue
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#325 Post by RitrovataBlue » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:12 pm

I haven’t ordered from NovaMedia, but this Wong UHD box may well be my first, unless Criterion suddenly takes the plunge with their Wong release. Happy Together is one of my dream UHDs, with In the Mood for Love not far behind.

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