71 / BD 2 Mad Detective

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them.
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foggy eyes
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:58 am
Location: UK

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#76 Post by foggy eyes » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:11 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:I seem to recall a fair amount of bluish tinting in PTU.
Me too, so it would certainly suggest a precedent for the extreme blue bias here. The transfer & colour scheme of MD looked great to my eyes, but I'm no To expert. Would love to hear a more informed opinion.

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HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#77 Post by HerrSchreck » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:21 pm

I wish Gringo would have asked his question where Gary could see it... on the Beev thread. Unless he is directed to it, he's not going to catch this discussion.

Bleddyn Williams
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:33 pm
Location: Billerica MA USA

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#78 Post by Bleddyn Williams » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:25 pm

Rich Malloy wrote:It's been said in a number of reviews - though not that I've found from MOC itself - that this is an "approved" transfer of some sort. The fantastic Svet Atanasov of the very reliable bluray.com site states that "The heavy blue tint favored by cinematographer Ceng Siu-keung is also kept intact [in the MOC transfer]".
Well, I just got home to find my first MoC Blu-ray in my mailbox (thank you, CD Wow!) and while I haven't had a chance to look at the disc, the very first thing listed under SPECIAL FEATURES is the following...

Gorgeous high-definition transfer supervised by the directors

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feihong
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:20 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective: further disappointments

#79 Post by feihong » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:58 pm

Condensing a post I put on asiandvdguide.com:

On the strength of The Running Man's comments and a site called bluray.com (which posted similar captures of the MOC disc that showed a much greater depth of color) I ordered the MOC blu-ray of MAD DETECTIVE and I received it today. It is indeed much sharper and it reveals a more beautiful and subtle range of color than the Mei Ah disc. However...


[SPOILERS, scenes discussed in detail]

...shots and sequences are missing on the MOC disc vis a vis the Mei Ah. When Bun has buried himself and lies in his self-made grave, he sees Chi-Wai's crimes in detail. He sees Chi-Wai planting evidence to blame the Indian and setting up the police sting that happens in the next scene. THEN on the Mei Ah disc we see a shot of Bun's profile in the grave and then a further flashback in which Chi-Wai's personalities chase down a weak young boy and overwhelm him. They pull a pistol from his pocket, and then Bun bursts from the grave, awake.

On the MOC disc we don't see the profile of Bun or the further flashback. The dream ends with Chi-Wai planting evidence and calling the police. Then Bun emerges from the grave.

Then one of my favorite sequences gets hacked. As Ho pursues the masked wolf-man (a disguised Chi-Wai in story terms) he is hit by a car. In the MOC disc he then rolls on the ground and recovers his breath, whereupon Bun calls him with news about his dream and his conclusions derived from it. WHAT IS GONE IS MY FAVORITE PART!!! I'm sorry, I had to say it that way. The missing section is from the Mei Ah disc, whereupon after Ho gets hit by the truck and rolls over, he looks up and sees the wolf-man crouching across the street. Then the wolf-man rushes him with a police gun pointing at Ho and beats Ho, asking him again and again in English "where is your gun?" Ho shouts back in English "Lost it!" When the wolf-man can't find the gun he turns and runs, leaving Ho in the street, recovering from the shock before Bun calls.

I haven't seen MAD DETECTIVE in theaters, so I don't know if my beloved scenes were present or not, but it seems to me that the missing scenes add richness to the story. First of all, Bun tells Ho on the phone to look out for a weak boy in the Mei Ah version, and this adds resonance to the next scene, in which Bun sees the boy and discovers the personality it belongs to is Ho's. Later, Chi-Wai asks Ho what inner personality Bun saw in Ho, and Ho replies, a weak boy. Ho says this again in the MOC version, but suddenly it is without context; with the cuts to this version, Bun has never told Ho about the weak boy - in fact, Bun hasn't even had the vision of the weak boy. So when Ho tells Chi-Wai of his inner personality, Ho can't possibly have known that's what Bun saw.

Going back to the wolf-man assaulting Ho, that sequence seems crucial in delineating Ho's breakdown in the last act of the film. It establishes the real risks of discredit and ruin for Ho; Ho is emasculated in the encounter because he has no way to protect himself. Realizing he has put his trust in a tenuous madman, and now losing confidence in his emasculation, in this scene Ho becomes the weak boy Bun foresees in his makeshift burial.

This is my first truly disappointing blu-ray experience. I went blu-ray because of the amount of Johnnie To films suddenly hitting the format. I've loved the discs of PTU and EXILED, and I'm overjoyed with the disc of SPARROW. But here's MAD DETECTIVE-easily one of the deepest and most complex Hong Kong films ever, and one of the most important narrative films to marry the magical realist literary tradition to an unrelated genre-and the discs keep revealing disappointing flaws. Can't Mei Ah re-release this one with better authoring? I think the Mei Ah disc boasts the far superior cut of the film.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#80 Post by peerpee » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:26 pm

feihong,

The directors revised their cut of the film after HK release, and the MoC edition features the director's final cut of the film. I'm sorry this disappoints you but it's much more important to us that we release the finished director's cut exactly how the director's want it.

Thus, there are no "flaws" in the MoC edition of the film.

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feihong
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:20 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#81 Post by feihong » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:55 pm

"The directors revised their cut of the film after HK release..."

So after the film was released theatrically they decided to retool their efforts in this way?

I'm further disappointed then that we couldn't see both versions. It's a question of a fairly small amount of footage, I know, but...

...Anyways, I've posted about what I feel these cuts do to the movie over at asiandvdguide.com. It's very lengthy and so I don't think I should repost it here. Suffice to say I think it leads one to see the film in a very different context, and that removing those scenes from the picture trivializes the Bun's visions and his madness. I wonder if Hong Kong audiences found it unbelievable that Ho and Chi-Wai would recover so quickly from being hit by a van. It certainly didn't ruin my movie experience.

So I understand that the MOC version is flawless. But it hasn't convinced me to trade in my Mei Ah disc, in spite of that version's technical inferiorities.

Rich Malloy
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:29 pm
Location: Boston MA

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#82 Post by Rich Malloy » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:14 pm

It's been a little while since we've discussed this disc, and in that time I've purchased and greatly enjoyed MOC's release of this film. In fact, by the time I received "Mad Detective", I'd already purchased all of the available To on bluray and enjoyed them all ("PTU", unfortunately, still remains held up in shipping/customs), and had Netlixed a number of other To films. Thanks to MOC for introducing me to this phenomenal filmmaker... even before I viewed their release!

I certainly don't have anything to add to the discussion on color timing, contrast boosting, etc., except that the extreme tinting in MOC's "Mad Detective" transfer is certainly not without precedent in To's films and I'm thoroughly satisfied that this is an accurate presentation of that film.

I do have one criticism regarding the authoring of the disc. As I recall, the default soundtrack on the MOC disc is the Dolby 2.0 downmix, and I'd be shocked to learn that this is To's preferred audio mix. In fact, as I was watching the film I couldn't help but think it was awfully subdued compared to the more audacious mixes that seem to mark To's other recent films. Around the time of that final, remarkable confrontation, I became convinced that something was amiss, and went to the menu and discovered that in fact the disc had defaulted to the Dolby 2.0 soundtrack. A quick switch to the DTS-MA track revealed all that I'd been missing... and gave me an excellent excuse to immediately rewatch the film!

So, all's well that end's well, but I would request that MOC reconsider the defaults when authoring BDs in the future.

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Sanjuro
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:37 am
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#83 Post by Sanjuro » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:31 pm

Wouldn't defaulting to DTS-MA would result in silence for those without it? I imagine the person less likely to understand the function of the menu button and setup options would be those splashing out on Blu-Ray players while retaining their 14" CRT with built in stereo speakers. Confronted with a silent movie, these hypothetical people would then storm Wal-Mart demanding their money back and eventually cause the collapse of society as we know it. Defaulting to stereo gives a watchable movie for everyone, and I assume most owners of DTS-MA decoders will eventually locate their preferred soundtrack before taking up arms.

Rich Malloy
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:29 pm
Location: Boston MA

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#84 Post by Rich Malloy » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:23 am

Sanjuro wrote:Wouldn't defaulting to DTS-MA would result in silence for those without it?
No, it plays what I believe is known as the "DTS core track", not silence. I can confirm that this is precisely what happens on my system - which is not DTS-MA capable.

Specifically, my player (Panny BD-30) will pass the DTS-MA signal to my receiver, but my receiver is not DTS-MA capable and plays instead the embedded "DTS core track". I hope I'm using these terms correctly, but the main point is that silence is not the result and the DTS-MA track remains the superior sounding track, even if you're only hearing the DTS core. It's vastly superior to the default DD-2.0 track (which is also not the original audio), and it also sounds rather better than the DD-5.1 track also included on the disc.

I wonder, however, if someone who's receiver can't decode DTS would hear only silence from the DTS-MA track? If so, then perhaps the DD-5.1 track would be the best default. But the 2.0 track? That's not the original audio, and I'd argue that original audio should trump all. FWIW, I think the disc should default to the best presentation of the original audio (in this instance that's clearly the DTS-MA track). That's the way all my blu-ray discs are authored... except "Mad Detective".

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The Elegant Dandy Fop
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:25 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#85 Post by The Elegant Dandy Fop » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:59 am

I just saw this last night. The Blu-Ray was amazing. The transfer was flawless, it sounded great, and the features were very fulfilling.

I've never seen a Johnnie To film before, but I have to say, I was very much impressed by this one. For some reason, I was expecting a film that was a lot more serious, but often times I was laughing. The whole scene in the urinal killed me! And forget it! The scenes where Bun was recreating his crimes were brilliant! This is some of the most fun I've had watching a movie in a while! I can't wait to get the rest of the Masters of Cinema Blu-Rays! I already pre-ordered Tokyo Sonata. I have little hope it'll come out in the U.S. in Blu-Ray.

Oh, and peerpee; keep the region free Blu-Rays coming. I promise I'll buy every single one. I'm, unfortunatly, in no financial situation to cough up the money for a region free player.

ryan11
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:39 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#86 Post by ryan11 » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:36 am

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote:I just saw this last night. The Blu-Ray was amazing. The transfer was flawless, it sounded great, and the features were very fulfilling.

I've never seen a Johnnie To film before, but I have to say, I was very much impressed by this one. For some reason, I was expecting a film that was a lot more serious, but often times I was laughing. The whole scene in the urinal killed me! And forget it! The scenes where Bun was recreating his crimes were brilliant! This is some of the most fun I've had watching a movie in a while!
...then you must check out Election 1&2, The Mission, Sparrow, and the 'coolest' of them all, Exiled. Yes, Johnnie To is a very fine film-maker.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#87 Post by peerpee » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:12 pm

Now available to view online in the UK & Eire at The Auteurs: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Sanjuro
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:37 am
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#88 Post by Sanjuro » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:16 pm

peerpee wrote:Now available to view online in the UK & Eire at The Auteurs: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually this seems to be available in Japan too. Is it still MOC's version or perhaps one sourced from the Hong Kong release? Does it make a difference?

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#89 Post by peerpee » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:48 pm

If there are ingrained Japanese subtitles (as I imagine it has?) it's almost certainly from the Japanese licencee's release.

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Sanjuro
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:37 am
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#90 Post by Sanjuro » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:57 am

That'd be fantastic it it did have Japanese subs. Would save me waiting for my wife to fall asleep before putting it on.
Doesn't mention them though.

Ah well, it's a five dollar rental. Can't hurt to give it a try.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#91 Post by peerpee » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:31 am

Are you talking about The Auteurs website in Japan or something else?

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Sanjuro
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:37 am
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#92 Post by Sanjuro » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:48 am

http://www.theauteurs.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; There's only one, isn't there? They don't usually let me watch MOC films since, as you mentioned in your post they're only licensed to be shown in the UK. So I was surprised when I noticed Mad Detective was 'available in your area'. I was just wondering how licensing works, that's all. Whether clearing the rights in Japan means they'll show the same version as MOC's DVD (blue filter and "missing" scenes) or if they have to take a transfer from somewhere else (bright filter, old cut) like the Hong Kong disc mentioned above.

Having just watched it I can say no Japanese subs, kind of blue (I suppose) and no extra wolfman scenes. Fantastic movie though, kept my wife awake even with English subs.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 71 Mad Detective

#93 Post by peerpee » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:04 pm

The licensor of the film, in a number of territories (including the UK), is Celluloid Dreams in Paris. The Auteurs are based out of their offices.

If the version you saw had British spellings ("colour", etc) then it would have been MoC's subtitles. Even if the subs weren't ours, you'd have seen the same visuals that we used, because Celluloid Dreams supplied our master.

Thanks for the info!

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