10 Francesco giullare di Dio

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them.
Message
Author
User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#51 Post by MichaelB » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:02 pm

evillights wrote:Personally, I view the "translation" of a human being's given name into another form as a moral obscenity. i.e., "Jeanne" => "Joan" // "Francesco" => "Francis" // "Piotr" => "Peter" // "Aleksandr" => "Alexander / Alexandre" and so on. It's extremely upsetting, grandly arrogant, and a move toward effacing identity from a person "real" or "fictional."
Well, if it's "extremely upsetting" and a "moral obscenity", then surely it's incumbent on us to go even further and only use the appropriate writing system?

After all, 'Aleksandr' and 'Piotr' are merely transliterations of the Cyrillic using whatever system you deem to be appropriate. (Not even widely-recognised spellings are necessarily sacrosanct: I have a sneaking admiration for the way the musicologist Richard Taruskin insists on spelling a certain famous Russian 19th-century composer's surname as 'Chaikovsky'). And Chinese transliteration systems offer even more extreme divergences from the original - not to mention frequent Anglicisation.

So where does a "moral obscenity" end and a practical solution to an otherwise insurmountable problem begin? I imagine MoC isn't about to release a Jackie Chan film any time soon, but if you were, what would you call him? Chen Long? Sing Lung? 陈港生? Or even 陳æˆ

User avatar
Dr Amicus
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:20 am
Location: Guernsey

#52 Post by Dr Amicus » Tue May 01, 2007 4:09 am

When I were a wee lad, long before the days of distinguished doctor-dom, one of my undergrad film courses was on Rossellini, taken by Michael Grant and an Italian colleague, whose name has long since vanished into the depths of my memory never to return. Anyway, the point of all this is that in their, and specifically the guy whose name escapes me, opinion, the most accurate translation is Francis, God's Troubadour.

Now, just waiting to see if this sets up a discussion as to the differences between a Troubadour and a Jester.

User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#53 Post by kinjitsu » Tue May 01, 2007 4:10 am

evillights wrote:Whenever MoC does release a Chinese-language film, the title will appear in original characters within the inside-cover, along with a romanization in parentheses, and probably a note about why it's been rendered that way, followed by a precise translation, and an accompanying footnote with whatever else needs to be discussed... just as we did for 'Kwaidan' (in which instance, the exact way the word is pronounced was also provided, with some background about why it is what it is).
If you want to be picky, the modern Japanese word for kwaidan is actually kaidan, which is comprised of two distinct kanji, and is not an exact, literal translation, but close enough, while the word itself has several different meanings depending on the first character. Nevertheless, in this particular instance, Kwaidan, or Kaidan (as it is listed on our beloved IMDb), simply represents the Japanese word for ghost stories. Therefore, depending on which side of the Meiji era you are standing, the ''we" in your reply may have blooped on this particular title as well, or perhaps we should place the blame on Lafcadio Hearn. In any event, I don't understand English, much less Japanese, so you needn't reply to this post unless you absolutely must.
The spelling Kwaidan is based on premodern Japanese pronunciation; when Hearn came to Japan, the orthography reflecting this pronunciation was still in use. In modern Japanese the word is pronounced Kaidan.
evillights wrote:You ask where a practical solution begins -- well, like I said, it begins simply with an informed, good-faith effort to respect the original name. Instituting the Cyrillic rendering of "Piotr" in the middle of an essay seems like a pretty monkish, hermetic, or even alienating way to go about things -- but writing "Piotr" instead of "Peter," or "Jeanne" instead of "Joan" does not. The French don't refer to you in print as "Michel," nor should they, because it's a name that's different than "Michael."
I would imagine that most people in the English speaking world would recognize Kozintsev's Hamlet as being an adaptation of the play by William Shakespeare, while Gamlet, or its Cyrillic counterpart, Гамлет, would create total panic in Peoria.

By the way, the French actor Michel Lonsdale also goes by the name Michael, if that's any help.

And for what it's worth, I prefer the title I Soliti ignoti to that of Big Deal on Madonna Street, so there.

Okay, basta così!
davidhare wrote:does the movie really lead you to favor "fool" or "jester"? Giullare to me is ambivalent, just as is Francesco's persona.
Dr Amicus wrote:Now, just waiting to see if this sets up a discussion as to the differences between a Troubadour and a Jester.
giullare: n.m. Jester, buffoon, juggler, minstral; strolling player.

Take your pick.
Last edited by kinjitsu on Sat May 05, 2007 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#54 Post by MichaelB » Tue May 01, 2007 6:22 am

kinjitsu wrote:I would imagine that most people in the English speaking world would recognize Kozintsev's Hamlet as being an adaptation of the play by William Shakespeare, while Gamlet, or its Cyrillic counterpart, Гамлет, would create total panic in Peoria.
As would Korol Lir. Interestingly enough, the Kino edition of Å vankmajer's shorts lists something called The Otrants Castle on the back, which I can only assume came about because the translator didn't recognise that Otrantský zámek was a Czech translation of Horace Walpole's Gothic novel The Castle of Otranto. (Amusingly enough, the disc menus use the correct translation, which speaks volumes about the quality control on that particular release!)

Mind you, Anglicising spelling creates additional problems - my sister, who speaks fluent Russian, says that it's physically painful for her to pronounce "Potemkin" as spelt, instead of the correct "Potyomkin", but she's equally aware that she'll come across as absurdly pretentious and affected if she refers to Battleship Potyomkin in the vast majority of the circles in which she moves. It's just one of these things, like the French spelling of 'Tchaikovsky', that's become so universally accepted that any attempt at correction, however unimpeachable one's arguments, makes one look highly eccentric.

Part of the problem is that some people are much more familiar with correct spelling and pronunciation than others. My Czech is pretty pitiful, but far from nonexistent, and one side-effect is that I absolutely insist on correctly spelling titles and names, complete with diacritics. (At least in situations where I have any control over this, which sadly doesn't include most print commissions). But most people wouldn't recognise that there's much of a difference between, say, 'Dvorak' and 'DvoÅ™ák', though it's actually quite substantial - 'Dvorak' versus 'Dvorzhaak' - but only to people who have already mastered the rules.

User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#55 Post by colinr0380 » Tue May 01, 2007 11:20 am

Dr Amicus wrote:Now, just waiting to see if this sets up a discussion as to the differences between a Troubadour and a Jester.
Actually that is a good point. Weren't troubadours an important way of communicating important news and messages to illiterate peoples, and did so in the form of entertaining, frivolous seeming to us now, songs and poetry?

Strange this comes up as I watched this video last night that touched on the subject and also beautifully describes how poetry and lyrics had a very important remembrance function to perform in an age before information could be written down and stored, and that once printing became widespread poetry and music took on a more pleasure-giving than information-imparting role.

I don't know how far that would apply to St Francis (maybe that is something that occured after the events the film portrays when everyone goes out to spread the teachings), but the lightness overlaying more serious concerns seems similar.

Perhaps Jester might better describe Brother Ginepro being used as a source of fun by Nicolaio and his men?

I've personally got nothing for or against different titles. I'd often prefer the original title, but in some cases that is just not possible to put on the cover of the DVD or video or on the theatre marquee for practical and advertising purposes. So I've nothing against using more familiar names or English translations as long as the film itself isn't tampered with to overlay non removable English language opening titles (as in Criterion's first Yojimbo disc) etc (but I really like MoC's method of removable English language intertitles for their silent films!) That was probably necessary for showing films in theatres so the audience would know the title of the film (though that doesn't excuse it - they could just add the translation in a subtitle), but in an age of video and DVD boxes that describe the film before the viewer sees it there just isn't the need.

It is always nice to see an attempt to keep the correct title, or original language or a correction of past title mistakes when DVDs are brought out, but as long as there is discussion of correct or alternate or original language titles and translations of those titles in the booklet or in features on the discs I can put up with Throne of Blood being advertised as such rather than being too upset that Kumonosu-Jô was not prominently displayed on the cover!

(Although I'd also like to give kudos to Second Run for their way of approaching this issue!)

User avatar
tryavna
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

#56 Post by tryavna » Tue May 01, 2007 2:59 pm

MichaelB wrote:It's just one of these things, like the French spelling of 'Tchaikovsky', that's become so universally accepted that any attempt at correction, however unimpeachable one's arguments, makes one look highly eccentric.
This point reminds me of a tendency of the British composer Ralph Vaughan Williams to insist on anglicizing foreign composer's names in his non-professional writings. So in many of his essays, he refers to his own favorite composer as John Sebastian Bach. This is probably exactly the sort of thing that drives Evillights batty. But RVW's motivation -- besides natural contrariness -- always seems to have been to combat the perceived foreign-ness of classical music in Britain at the time and to make those composers' names less daunting to the average person. (And RVW was by no means a xenophobe, having studied in both Germany and France.)

At any rate, I can't imagine Bach himself minding all that much....

evillights
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: U.S.
Contact:

#57 Post by evillights » Wed May 02, 2007 12:09 am

And BTW/FYI -- to get back on Rossellini-topic -- there's a Rossellini season coming up (this month? this summer?) at the BFI, for anyone in England. Don't miss 'Francesco' on the big-screen if you're able. Tag Gallagher's video-essay on the film is (is maybe?) going to be screened, or so I've heard -- it's absolutely brilliant. Don't miss it; a lot of what he points out is likely to be revelatory (at least it was for me), even if you've seen the film many times. (All the business with Francesco's sleeves comes to mind, and many of the nuances in the body-language of the monks... there's also a great sequence about the embrace of the leper.) It's a moving work about a moving film.

Hopefully they'll also screen his video on 'Il Messia' -- one of the late Rossellini works that deserve to be seen widely; in my opinion one of the greatest films ever made.

craig.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#58 Post by MichaelB » Wed May 02, 2007 3:42 am

tryavna wrote:But RVW's motivation -- besides natural contrariness -- always seems to have been to combat the perceived foreign-ness of classical music in Britain at the time and to make those composers' names less daunting to the average person. (And RVW was by no means a xenophobe, having studied in both Germany and France.)
A certain extremely famous Italian opera composer - probably the most famous of the lot, in fact - has a name that translates as 'Joseph Green'.

And while I wouldn't dream of suggesting using this in any context other than a jocular one, I do appreciate the passing insight into how an Italian might hear the name.

Which is of course another element that's often neglected in these discussions - whereby excessive purism might paradoxically create a situation where a work actually becomes less accessible to people who aren't competent in the original language, simply because they won't pick up the necessary nuances without some kind of guide. (This relates to the debate about the subtitles on La Haine, a particularly good example).

Incidentally, the BFI's Rossellini season starts this Sunday - here's the entry page, an introduction by Geoffrey Nowell-Smith, and a list of whats showing.

User avatar
GringoTex
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am

#59 Post by GringoTex » Wed May 02, 2007 6:50 am

MichaelB wrote:Incidentally, the BFI's Rossellini season starts this Sunday - here's the entry page, an introduction by Geoffrey Nowell-Smith, and a list of whats showing.
Does this mean we'll see some restored dvd editions in the near future?

User avatar
Gropius
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:47 pm

#60 Post by Gropius » Wed May 02, 2007 11:04 am

GringoTex wrote:Does this mean we'll see some restored dvd editions in the near future?
Seems unlikely. Hasn't this retro already done the rounds of the Cinematheque Ontario and MoMA?

User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#61 Post by kinjitsu » Wed May 02, 2007 12:50 pm

Just in case some of you were not aware of its existence, we happen to have a thread dedicated to Roberto Rossellini.

evillights
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: U.S.
Contact:

#62 Post by evillights » Wed May 02, 2007 5:42 pm

I'm happy that UK'ers will get to see some of those later works. (Guys, seriously -- any conversation about anything is going to end up going in a few different directions at some point, bringing in tangents that even if they don't go exactly back to the point of origin right away, might at least shed some light its way before an eventual return. I don't post very often here because it always seems that as soon as a conversation gets going, some overseer chirps in with a reminder of the topic, or a detour sign for where the conversation would more properly 'belong,' or deletes whole strands of messages and moves them into another thread. I think any discussion forum can relax its on-topic guidelines somewhat without dissolving into anarchy -- it's good for the general mental-health of the place, no?)

craig.

User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#63 Post by kinjitsu » Wed May 02, 2007 6:05 pm

evillights wrote: I don't post very often here because it always seems that as soon as a conversation gets going, some overseer chirps in with a reminder of the topic, or a detour sign for where the conversation would more properly 'belong,' or deletes whole strands of messages and moves them into another thread.
Matt wrote:Stay on topic. Replies should be answers to the original question or in the realm of the discussion. Try not to create sub-conversations in a thread as it complicates reading and really doesn't belong in the thread. If you have a discussion topic that was generated from reading a thread, just start a new thread. Also, please feel free to send off-topic personal responses using the private message function instead of broadcasting it to the whole forum.
evillights wrote: I think any discussion forum can relax its on-topic guidelines somewhat without dissolving into anarchy
What are you talking about? Much of the previous two pages dissolved into anarchy and had little or nothing to do with Francesco, giullare di Dio, Rossellini, or anything else related to the film.

User avatar
Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am

#64 Post by Tommaso » Thu May 03, 2007 4:29 am

Agreed. I don't think we should restrain our free flow of thoughts overmuch, though. If a discussion goes off-topic for a longer period for whatever reason, I'm perfectly happy if the Mods move it to some new or other place. Not a big issue, really.

akaten

#65 Post by akaten » Thu May 03, 2007 2:21 pm

And there I was hoping my initial post would start a discussion about the film's place and influence in a wider context of post war Italian cinema. It just seemed to me this film hasn't really been discussed here and the interesting, not to mention contentious Sight and Sound article might just help do that - I'm just getting stuck into Italian cinema starting with neo-realism after which I shall get round to viewing this.

Not that I didn't like reading about title changes (great discussion) makes you think about who has the right to change a films title, bearing in mind the influence it will have down the line. Actually I only mentioned the title change to avoid confusion and also because I felt that the article should have mentioned the original film title at least initially, bet they would have if it was a BFI DVD *cynic*.

User avatar
Awesome Welles
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:02 am
Location: London

#66 Post by Awesome Welles » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:54 am

evillights wrote:Personally, I view the "translation" of a human being's given name into another form as a moral obscenity. i.e., "Jeanne" => "Joan" // "Francesco" => "Francis" // "Piotr" => "Peter" // "Aleksandr" => "Alexander / Alexandre" and so on. It's extremely upsetting, grandly arrogant, and a move toward effacing identity from a person "real" or "fictional."
I couldn't agree more, I think essentially it is a lack of respect. My name is Francesco and if someone I was talking to couldn't handle it and turned around and called me Francis I would be offended, they may as well call me shitface. It is demeaning to my name and my family who gave it to me. Jesus, I sound like a bad gangster film at the end there.

On the topic of some new Rossellini DVDs - I highly doubt it, the prints for Paisa and Germania Anno Zero were particularly bad and with awful subtitles (it hasn't stopped Arrow from releasing such poor releases though, so you never know) also the print for L'Uomo dalla croce wasn't great but La Nave Bianca wasn't too bad (can't remember the subtitles).

Kenji
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:23 pm

#67 Post by Kenji » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:00 pm

Certainly one of the best religious films, and utterly devoid of the "sentimental piety" David Hare mentions above. The style suits the unpretentious simple nature of the subject, and has a lots of charm. Why can't more religious films be like it?- might win more converts. I suppose Pasolini's Gospel must have been influenced, and Scorsese too. An interesting issue for me is Rossellini's being renowned for living up a wealthy fast car lifestyle, yet managed something so down to earth. He used to avoid any prettified aestheticism.

User avatar
Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am

#68 Post by Tommaso » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:42 am

Quite true, and the understatement and simplicity in depicting religious matters is even more powerful in Rosselini's very last film, "The Messiah", which shows Jesus as a totally human(e) being, devoid of any of the false glory that the Church and countless other films invest him with. And it's all the more impressive for that, and in my view even more powerful than Pasolini's version (with which it shares the beautiful landscape photography and a large amount of non-professional actors). I assume that this film was probably a more direct influence on Scorsese than "Francesco".

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#69 Post by MichaelB » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:46 am

Tommaso wrote:I assume that this film was probably a more direct influence on Scorsese than "Francesco".
I suspect he was well aware of it - not least as Scorsese was Rossellini's son-in-law (albeit posthumously) during the time when he was trying to get Last Temptation off the ground for the first time.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: 10 Francesco, giullare di Dio

#70 Post by peerpee » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:46 pm

Now viewable in the UK & Eire at The Auteurs: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/874" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
TMDaines
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Stretford, Manchester

Re: 10 Francesco, giullare di Dio

#71 Post by TMDaines » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:52 am

I can't get the deleted scene images to work in VLC, MPC or PowerDVD. Anyone have this problem? No keys, or PowerDVD's on-screen remote, will make the next image appear.

User avatar
Minkin
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: 10 Francesco, giullare di Dio

#72 Post by Minkin » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:56 pm

TMDaines wrote:I can't get the deleted scene images to work in VLC. Anyone have this problem?
I have the same problem. It's compounded by the issue that I can't even see the first still (there's some awful vertical lines that haze out the image and text). I can only try it with VLC, since I don't have the region free hack for PowerDVD (just the bluray one).

I did just try it on my Sherwood - and everything worked perfectly (no lines either). VLC must have some configuration issue or something (the intro to the DVD doesn't play on VLC either). Anybody know of a solution?

tag gallagher
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:41 am
Contact:

Re: 10 Francesco, giullare di Dio

#73 Post by tag gallagher » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:14 pm

Here is a link from which one may download an avi of my video about Rossellini's Francesco.

It is 329 MB, one file.

Post Reply