Twilight Time / Redwind

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3401 Post by FrauBlucher » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:21 pm

Format has outlived the label.
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tenia
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3402 Post by tenia » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:41 am

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nitin
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3403 Post by nitin » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:31 pm

I know people here seem to dislike the label but they have put out a number of exclusive titles that I am glad to have purchased and seen.

KJones77
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3404 Post by KJones77 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:08 am

nitin wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:31 pm
I know people here seem to dislike the label but they have put out a number of exclusive titles that I am glad to have purchased and seen.
Agreed. Sorry to see them seemingly on the way out. I'll definitely be picking up titles in whatever clearance sale I assume they'll hold down the line.

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tenia
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3405 Post by tenia » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:39 am

I don't so much "dislike the label" that dislike how they're operating. They've been arrogant in their knowledge of the market and opportunistic in their price / content ratio to the point they explicitly told me once "if Americans want to get those movies, that'll be this anyway". They also bragged about how their 3000 copies "1 size fits all" batch size was the right one because 30% of their releases were sold out after (IIRC) 5 or 6 years (and many clearance sales already), while it really actually tends to demonstrate the opposite : mathematically, the majority of their releases haven't sold out after that many years (ie 3000 copies is way too much) while some of the others have sold out much quicker and they're now back to being unavailable for people. It only points towards the need for tailored batch sizes, but yet.

They sure saved many movies through their releases, but I can't fathom defending $30 basically bare-bones releases, especially when on top of that, the places where you can buy them makes the whole thing even more complicated (and expensive). The fact is many of the renowned labels are releasing these movies in better and/or better priced releases, while TT never really pushed the editorial effort because they simply didn't need to.

The reality of the market most likely caught up with them, especially when their releases managed to get even lighter in extra features over time and that other labels were showing months after months how badly mispriced TT releases were. The US re-releases by other labels (discussed above) probably showed the US customers that too (ie for the majority who doesn't import).

I myself quickly stopped buying TT releases when realising the titles I was interested by were getting better cheaper releases elsewhere but also that they were more and more likely to get clearance sales over time (which they did).

Bottom line is : I like what they were doing, but certainly not HOW they were doing it.

I still feel sad in a way because of all the movies they were rescuing but it's hard to really feel sorry for them when it just seems like the logical consequences of a relatively ill-suited marketing plan.

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Saturnome
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3406 Post by Saturnome » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:55 am

As long as someone else release Leave Her to Heaven so I can finally have it

nitin
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3407 Post by nitin » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:32 am

Tenia, I don’t necessarily disagree with all of that but again, for me, they have released over a 100 exclusive titles that I am glad to have and that still haven’t had any competing releases. At the end of the day, I am in it for the movies not whether label x has a better release strategy than label y.

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tenia
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3408 Post by tenia » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:48 am

I understand your point, but I'm always bothered when X label licenced this or that movie when I know Y label would have released it for cheaper and in a more loaded release instead. I can't separate those 2 elements. There's probably 4 times too many releases around the world for my budget to buy. At some point, such elements cannot not be part of my priorisation strategy.
Moreover, I'm probably slightly unlucky but 8 of the 22 TT releases I bought have been released elsewhere through better and/or cheaper releases. That kind of slowed my enthusiasm down.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3409 Post by FrauBlucher » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:12 am

First off, they took advantage of the consumer. First by shouting about the death knell of physical media as to get everyone to scoop up their limited edition releases. While price gauging. They didn’t even have long term rights. So, what might have been a possibility back then has turned into reality now by other labels getting many of those rights to the films and releasing in better, cheaper versions. Secondly, I don’t want to bash the guy because he is no longer with us. But his arrogance in defending his business model was disingenuous. But to each their own. If there are folks Ok with all that, then more power to you. I certainly didn’t appreciate the duplicity.

nitin
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3410 Post by nitin » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:43 pm

Most of the TT titles I have are from their sales and were between $7.95 - $19.95 (plus shipping). So once again, I don’t disagree with what you have said but it’s also not like one couldn’t buy most of them if one didn’t want to pay $29.95.

And after all these years there are still a huge number of exclusive titles released that still have no competing versions anywhere in the world.

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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3411 Post by whaleallright » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:45 pm

Saturnome wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:55 am
As long as someone else release Leave Her to Heaven so I can finally have it
I would hope it would be from a different transfer, because the Twilight Time Blu-Ray is one of the worst examples I know of an older film being DNR'd to hell. I watched it for about 10 minutes and promptly listed it for sale; I much prefer the Fox DVD. It doesn't help that I saw a magnificent 35mm print of the film—one of the great Technicolor films—just a few months before I bought the Blu-Ray. The waxy visages of the characters felt like a violation. This is largely Fox's fault for supplying a bad master, but Twilight Time's relative indifference to the kind of quality control that would have rejected it is part of why I had mixed feelings about them. Still, I have kept probably 15–20 of their releases and I've enjoyed every one of those, most recently Melvin and Howard.
FrauBlucher wrote:First by shouting about the death knell of physical media as to get everyone to scoop up their limited edition releases
To be fair, I think Redman was absolutely sincere in his belief that physical media was decisively on its way out, and he wasn't alone in that belief—it was the subject of a zillion articles in Variety etc. I imagine he was pleasantly surprised by the tenacity of Blu-Ray even if it meant their business model ended up being a bit of a miscalculation.

nitin
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3412 Post by nitin » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:59 pm

I am fairly sure there is no DNR at play in Leave Her to Heaven, all of the issues (mainly colour) are due to the fact that no 1st or 2nd gen original elements exist. And the DVD is definitely not a better viewing experience IMHO, it fares even worse in the colour department and most definitely has less detail.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film4/blu-ray_ ... lu-ray.htm
Last edited by nitin on Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3413 Post by domino harvey » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:07 pm

I've never heard anyone say the Twilight Time had DNR...

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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3414 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:57 pm

It always looks terrific to me!

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Saturnome
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3415 Post by Saturnome » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:47 am

Considering the original elements are lost I think the screencaps look nice.
I wish I could have seen the film before it went out of print, because I wasn't expecting it to be so good and to be something that is now missing in my collection ... and can't have because of Twilight Time's tactics. Surely this is going to be released by another label at some point?

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tenia
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3416 Post by tenia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:21 am

Leave Her to Heaven is a Fox title so with Disney's acquisition and current strategy, it's unlicensable.
The only hope is if Fox doesn't have worldwide rights and the labels in the related countries manage to release it.
nitin wrote:Most of the TT titles I have are from their sales and were between $7.95 - $19.95 (plus shipping). So once again, I don’t disagree with what you have said but it’s also not like one couldn’t buy most of them if one didn’t want to pay $29.95.
Jamieson said at Lyon 3 weeks ago that part of TT's model was to never do any sales like this but that they more and more had to because their 2017 and 2018 figures have been that awful. These sales thus exist solely because TT misjudged the market's trajectory and their business model's appeal but ended up with such an unflexible model that's all they could do for an answer.
Last edited by tenia on Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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swo17
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3417 Post by swo17 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:25 am

Yeah, during their early years there were no sales at all that I can recall, at least none for much of a discount

nitin
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3418 Post by nitin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:49 am

There weren’t, but apart from a handful of sellouts in the early years, a lot of them were still available when the sales started.

Which goes back to tenia’s point that the sales occurred because the business model was misjudged.

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tenia
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3419 Post by tenia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:21 am

That's exactly what Jamieson said : the original business model was "No sale ever", but they had to later on even if contradicting their initial guideline.

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domino harvey
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3420 Post by domino harvey » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:23 pm

This label was a good idea when it started, but then Kino Lorber and Olive came on the scene and obliterated them in their output from the same licensors for half the effective price. TT’s response was to keep doing everything the same. TT didn’t adapt and now they’re facing the end result of that hubris. Expecting customers to thank you for overpriced releases of increasingly obscure titles cloaked in consistently hideous covers is not a great business model

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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3421 Post by Gregory » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:01 pm

Many of us started critiquing their business model the very day the label's launch was announced in the LA Times. Another thing about it that was misjudged was the tactic of getting collectors to purchase TT releases as soon as possible because Hurry! This is only available for a LIMITED TIME!, which is merited when there are only 3,000 copies available of a film that has a big cult following. But it certainly wasn't true of about 98% of what the label released, so when the periodical sales started happening many learned to wait a couple of years or more if need be to get certain titles for Olive-level prices (or less). A couple of months ago I picked up a few titles from them that wouldn't have been on my radar before I noticed they'd dropped to $5.95 (e.g., Resurrected). I'm sure they took a big loss on most of the titles that ended up being sold off at those low price-points.

I bought many of the early releases only to end up wanting to sell them off when better UK releases came along. I listed several of them on Amazon and sometimes they'd sit there for a couple of years before being purchased, even in the case of an out-of-print one like Broadway Danny Rose (which I had listed for about three years before someone ordered it). This might say something about the level of demand for most Twilight Time releases. I know their hearts were in the right place and wish they'd gone about things in a different way.

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Drucker
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3422 Post by Drucker » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:31 pm

I cannot stress the degree to which forcing people to buy through SAE made me hate this label. I'll overpay if I really want something. I plucked down probably ~$70 for those Flicker Alley Paul Muni blu-rays because I just wanted free shipping from Barnes and Noble. There was never a reason for me to be on that site. And around holiday season when family buys me usually a bunch of blu-rays for the year, I sure hate pointing them to that website instead of easy old Amazon.

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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3423 Post by Nw_jahrles » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:26 pm

I think a turning point was when they began re-releasing some of their best-sellers (which was fine), but issued "Encore" editions with betters scans/restorations ie. Journey to the Center of the Earth, Fright Night. It has become clear in the boutique Blu-Ray market that consumers will be very loyal to a label if the label proves itself to be customer first. Hence why Indicator is having success. People blind-buy their editions for the packaging/contents alone. Also, the limited-edition model has evolved to limited edition followed by a standard edition model which make people feel like they aren't being pressured to buy a release.

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tenia
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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3424 Post by tenia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:48 pm

One of their main business model motto was the 3000 copies / 1 size fits all batch run.
It's probably safe to say it never fitted all. At all.
They started quite early to have very-quick sold out that yielded the need for Encore releases, negating the One size fits all strategy, while some 4 years old releases were still far away from selling out and now are heavily discounted. This only meant they were willing to compromise their sole main incentive : BUY NOW IT'S LIMITED.

They proved it's actually not that limited through no less than 3 ways : they can do Encore releases if they want (they even did one for The Train, which I never thought would warrant such a business decision to do 2 limited printings), many of them can be bought later and at a discount, and finally now, some others are getting re-released by other labels through better/cheaper releases. And that's not taking into account importing from UK or French labels.

The SAE thing also wasn't at all consumer-oriented since they don't really offer flexibility or interesting shipping fees, especially for international customers. It meant for me having to make big orders - which would potentially get caught by the customs and taxed - while the SAE website would tell me "DO YOU REQLLY WANT TO USE THE CHEAPER SHIPPING OPTION ?!! NO REPLACEMENT IF LOST !!" Well, if the other option is $45, yes I'll take the $20 one instead.

In the end, domino summed it up well : they should have evolved with the market but chose not to, even if it meant ending up breaking every rule of their business model until it ruined them. This is unfortunate for some of the movies they could have released in the future, but really is unsurprising.

Thougg maybe they actually sold 2500 copies of that $30 8 heads in a duffel bag almost barebones release and it's actually close to selling out.

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Re: Twilight Time / Redwind

#3425 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:27 pm

tenia wrote:In the end, domino summed it up well : they should have evolved with the market but chose not to, even if it meant ending up breaking every rule of their business model until it ruined them. This is unfortunate for some of the movies they could have released in the future, but really is unsurprising.
Which tells me all they were interested in was making as many bucks as they could. Especially with Redman’s view and insistence that in 5 years, if memory serves me, that physical media will disappear. Well, we are long past his arrogant timeframe. Yes, there were industry rumblings about the downturn of physical media, but no end date was applied except the one TT put on it.

When they saw that they were wrong about the demise they should’ve changed their model and made it more consumer friendly. Especially with all the heat and criticism they took from the beginning. But I believe they didn’t care. Money, money, money!

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