374 Bicycle Thieves

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#101 Post by kinjitsu » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:57 pm

I think it's clear from Gary's caps which of the two is the better transfer. While it may be windowboxed, the Criterion seems a vast improvement over the Image disc, so I'm not the least bit sorry to have passed it along.

User avatar
htdm
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:46 am

#102 Post by htdm » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:36 pm

I agree. I was very pleased with both the transfer and the supplements on this new Criterion version and found it to be a noticeable improvement on the original Image release (which I also have). This is a very solid and welcome release.

User avatar
skuhn8
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: Chico, CA

#103 Post by skuhn8 » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:56 pm

kinjitsu wrote:I think it's clear from Gary's caps which of the two is the better transfer. While it may be windowboxed, the Criterion seems a vast improvement over the Image disc, so I'm not the least bit sorry to have passed it along.
No one is debating which is better... but 'vast improvement' would certainly be the point of discussion. I wonder how many people double-dip after squinting at a comparison on Beaver and noticing an ever so slight improvement in one over the other, not realising that the difference in a freeze frame comparison rarely plays out when in motion. Don't get me wrong. I always study Beaver before making a purchase, but have come to realize how dramatic the difference needs to be to actually notice it in motion.

That said, I'd love to see some forum members take the Pepsi challenge with the CC vs. the Image (or the Arrow) in motion and be able call it.

Of course, if I didn't have the Image I'd jump all over this...I still probably will one of these days when I've got some extra Washingtons lying about, as it's impossible to have too much Bicycle Thieves on the shelf.

User avatar
Tribe
The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Contact:

#104 Post by Tribe » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:04 pm

skuhn8 wrote:That said, I'd love to see some forum members take the Pepsi challenge with the CC vs. the Image (or the Arrow) in motion and be able call it.
I agree with Schrek that the CC isn't a "vast improvement" over the Image... not like the new Seven Samurai CC edition over the first CC. But I find the improvement to be nonetheless noticeable....the CC appears to be cleaner, grainier, a nicer range of gray tones.

Tribe

User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#105 Post by kinjitsu » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:14 pm

skuhn8 wrote:No one is debating which is better...
No argument intended, just stating the obvious. My memory of the Image disc is fairly recent since did I managed to watch it prior to letting it go, and in motion, I can safely say that the Criterion is another experience entirely. And per HerrSchreck's comments regarding the subtitle translation, I will pay more attention the next time around. Capisce?

User avatar
TheGodfather
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 pm
Location: The Netherlands

#106 Post by TheGodfather » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:21 pm

jt wrote:Are people really not happy with this?

I appreciate that the image is only a slight improvement over the previous versions but as has been mentioned, they were in pretty good shape to begin with.

Short of adding a commentary (and of course, not picture-boxing) I'm not sure what more CC could have done.
The box and artwork are splendid, the book is exemplary and the extras are informative and interesting.

I for one am a happy camper.
I agree. I think the image quality on the Criterion is better than the one on the Arrow films disc (wich I also own). The design is gorgeous, the booklet is great.

Excellent release, a must-own in my book.

User avatar
daniel p
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:01 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

#107 Post by daniel p » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:02 pm

I don't own the dvd yet, but from Gary's review, I think the Criterion is clearly the best transfer. The Image release has a greenish tinge to it, and the Arrow release is too soft. Criterion is spot on to my eye, and has more detail than the others.

User avatar
Anthony
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:38 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA

#108 Post by Anthony » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:39 pm

TheGodfather wrote:Excellent release, a must-own in my book.

If only it wasn't windowboxed and included a commentary from a De Sica scholar. Then it would have been perfect. But sadly, we can only dream of what could have been... :cry:

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#109 Post by HerrSchreck » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:25 am

jt wrote:
HerrSchreck wrote:I could imagine someone who didn't previously own the film being completely and duly overwhelmed.
I agree with this statement but unless there is a version I am unaware of, it looks like my Arrow Films was the disc to beat. I've upgraded from good picture to very good, no booklet to excellent weighty booklet, one meaty doc to three meaty docs and bog-standard box to lovely digipac.

Minus a commentary, that sounds like a comparable upgrade to the Seven Samurai one.

And Schreck, I haven't seen the Image disc. Would you consider the subs enough of an improvement over the CC to warrant getting hold of a copy on the cheap?
You truly think the difference between the image on the old Image & new CC BTHIEVES is as huge as the old & new CC SEVEN SAMURAI?

Folks all I'm saying is that the improvement in image quality isn't as mindblowing as is usual-- perhaps this is testament to the state of the elements rather than any "laziness" on CC's part. One look at the cropping, and the similar contrast & sharpness between the releases (yes there are unusual caps containing chroma noise which I didn't notice on my monitor or in the rest of the caps) screams this obvious fact. It's just an observation, not an "attack" on the release. Of COURSE the CC is the superior release, all things considered. But for a fanatical student of the film like me, the lack of a commentary, the lack of targeting of the docs to the film specifically are a slight bit of a letdown. The 7-SAM had the ITS WONDERFUL TO... doc, plus the magnificent original CC doc about the film's sources & inspirations, and that crown jewel of a roundtable commentary-- all of which educated one specifically about the film itself.. not, say, the jidai geki in general. (The 7 SAM well has a booklet equal to the BTHIEVES booklet).

It's still a good release, but the classic blatant hugeness of the Criterion image upgrade, for whatever reason, just isn't there.

As to the translation, I probably wouldn't reccommend buying the Image disc specifically for that-- not unless you're a total fanatic for the film. The CC is far more complete in it's subtitling... just the usages in some cases aren't as appropriately acidicly humorous as folks bust on each other with that old fashioned Italian cranky harried humor.

User avatar
jt
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:47 am
Location: zurich

#110 Post by jt » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:41 am

HerrSchreck wrote:You truly think the difference between the image on the old Image & new CC BTHIEVES is as huge as the old & new CC SEVEN SAMURAI?
No, I didn't own the original CC, I had the bfi. But you're right, it's clear that the image improvement for 7Sam was greater than that for BTheives. But does anyone know for certain that it would even be possible to make such a large improvement over the already decent alternative copies?

I think we might be going round in circles here HerrSchreck, we clearly both love the film and think that the package is very good, if not quite as good as the 7Sam package was.

My point would be that I'm not going to let myself get disappointed if future releases don't match up to the 7Sam re-release, which is quite possibly the best dvd package of a single film ever made.

If CC release one film package a year of 7Sam quality and another half a dozen as good as BTheives, I'll still be happy. Maybe I'm less demanding than some, or maybe I don't have enough time to watch comprehensive extras/ commentaries for every disc.
As to the translation, I probably wouldn't reccommend buying the Image disc specifically for that-- not unless you're a total fanatic for the film. The CC is far more complete in it's subtitling... just the usages in some cases aren't as appropriately acidicly humorous as folks bust on each other with that old fashioned Italian cranky harried humor.
Cheers for that, I probably won't bother.

User avatar
TheGodfather
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 pm
Location: The Netherlands

#111 Post by TheGodfather » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:07 pm

Anthony wrote:If only it wasn't windowboxed and included a commentary from a De Sica scholar. Then it would have been perfect.
Gotta agree. But then again, we can`t everything we want now can we? ;)

Narshty
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:27 pm
Location: London, UK

#112 Post by Narshty » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:24 pm

Anthony wrote:If only it wasn't windowboxed and included a commentary from a De Sica scholar. Then it would have been perfect. But sadly, we can only dream of what could have been.
Why does this film need a commentary? As filmed entertainment it's as self-explanatory as it gets. I don't understand the fetishism for someone else talking over the top of the film simply for the sake of it. There's analysis and contextualisation galore in the accompanying booklet, plus I imagine in the documentaries on disc two. Why isn't that enough?

User avatar
Tribe
The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Contact:

#113 Post by Tribe » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:48 pm

Narshty wrote:There's analysis and contextualisation galore in the accompanying booklet, plus I imagine in the documentaries on disc two. Why isn't that enough?
Mark Shiel's doc on Italian neorealism is as good of an introduction to a film movement as I've seen. I can't judge how exhaustive or accurate it is, but I found it very, very informative.

Tribe

User avatar
TheRanchHand
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:18 am
Location: Los Angeles

#114 Post by TheRanchHand » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:34 am

I agree that we have become so jaded by extras (remember when it was just extra-free VHS?) that we now complain or even get pissed(!) when a commentary is missing. I love a GOOD commentary on favorite films, but am just glad to get nice transfers with a few goodies. I haven't picked this one up yet but will tomorrow.

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

#115 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:30 am

I wouldn't pay a penny extra for a commentary (by anyone than Herzog -- talking about his own work). Quality transfer -- and quality essays (text or video) are far more important.

User avatar
Der Müde Tod
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:50 am

#116 Post by Der Müde Tod » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:32 pm

I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.

User avatar
Anthony
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:38 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA

#117 Post by Anthony » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:44 pm

Der Müde Tod wrote:I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
Has anyone written to Criterion yet to inquire if this is a DVD authoring mistake, or inherent mistake in the source material?

User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#118 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:10 pm

DVD Times review.

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#119 Post by HerrSchreck » Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:05 am

Der Müde Tod wrote:I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
That's the film. Very little of the sound was recorded on set. You can pay close attention and find moments of glaring mis-synching throughout, having nothing to do with the transfer.

User avatar
arsonfilms
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

#120 Post by arsonfilms » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:26 am

The review on DVD Talk mentioned that the Italian tendency to record audio and picture apart from each other is explained in the documentary on neorealism. Sadly though, the reviewer doesn't explain it himself and I haven't watched the doc, so I can't be much help, but Orson Welles was a fan of the technique as it allowed him to re-write whole scenes after he'd filmed them, and then perform every damn character in a movie. I think I mentioned once when Mr. Arkadin came out that you can tell the scenes Welles approved of if the supporting characters are out of sync and don't sound like the actors you see.

User avatar
thethirdman
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:26 pm

#121 Post by thethirdman » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:20 pm

Der Müde Tod wrote:I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
Dubbing in Italian Cinema Thread

User avatar
BusterK.
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec

#122 Post by BusterK. » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:17 am

Anthony wrote:If only it wasn't windowboxed and included a commentary from a De Sica scholar. Then it would have been perfect. But sadly, we can only dream of what could have been... :cry:
Come on, let's be reasonable here, who cares about a fucking commentary? This is the finest transfer of this masterpiece available in the world, and yet, there are still complaints...

I'm just very glad to own this beautiful dvd with a very accurate translation. I'm willing to bet this movie won't look any better for at least a decade.

User avatar
Matango
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Hong Kong

#123 Post by Matango » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:36 am

This is the finest transfer of this masterpiece available in the world, and yet, there are still complaints.
We could have said that about the Image release a month ago.
That's part of the reason we're here, to push for better releases.

User avatar
Gigi M.
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:09 pm
Location: Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep

#124 Post by Gigi M. » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:10 pm

Matango wrote:We could have said that about the Image release a month ago.
That's part of the reason we're here, to push for better releases.
Then, don't push it too hard. You might not get shit the next time. This is an excellent release all around. Don't like it, don't buy it.
Last edited by Gigi M. on Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
arsonfilms
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

#125 Post by arsonfilms » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:48 pm

Gigi M. wrote:
Matango wrote:We could have said that about the Image release a month ago.
That's part of the reason we're here, to push for better releases.
Then, don't push it too hard. You might not get shit. This is an excellent release all around. Don't like it, don't buy it.
I have to agree. We really seem to be getting into equine oral analysis on this release, and judging by the quality of what we got, I'm having a hard time figuring out why. I like commentaries as much as the next guy, but I'm amazed by the degree to which they seem to be fetishized around here. If the commentary is a good one, I'm thrilled to have it, but if they couldn't really find anyone they liked, I'd rather Criterion not try to force the issue. Has anyone read the book? It's great! The image is great! The features seem great! So what are we all complaining about?

Post Reply