384 Vengeance Is Mine

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
Message
Author
User avatar
Scharphedin2
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 7:37 am
Location: Denmark/Sweden

#26 Post by Scharphedin2 » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:24 pm

I own the LD; the first Imamura film I ever saw. Imamura fared comparatively better on LD, than he has so far on DVD. Aside from Vengeance, I own Eijanaika, Insect Woman and Black Rain on LD. The latter two, as I recall, looked very good (for the time and format) and were in correct aspect ratio (I believe). Eijanaika, on the other hand, was a mess.

The Vengeance Is Mine LD is full frame, and it was a CAV encoded disc (so you could do perfect stills -- and the film was spread to five sides!), hence the high price point. However, I have not looked at it in ages, so can't comment on the colors. The only (other) extra being liner notes on the back of the box by our forum colleague David Ehrenstein.

EDIT: And the cover did feature Ogata sitting in a black suit in front of a nude woman stretched out on the floor behind him. The photo is from the same session as the one that graces the MoC cover. I like the LD cover, however, I actually think the new CC DVD cover captures the spirit of the film better.

User avatar
manicsounds
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:58 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

#27 Post by manicsounds » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:34 am

Aspect Ratio debate. Criterion 1.66:1, MoC 1.78:1, Shochiku 1.78:1, imdb gives a strange 1.96:1 (negative ratio as they say)

I'm gonna pass on this too as I had recently gotten the MoC a few weeks ago.

User avatar
nick
grace thought I was a failure
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:42 am
Location: Rochester, NY

#28 Post by nick » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:34 pm

perpee wrote:imdb says "Vistavision 1.96:1" -- but it's pretty clear that the OAR is 1.85:1 on this film. Our sleeve says 1.78:1, but this is because it was printed a month before we finalised the transfer. The ratio on the disc is 1.85:1 anamorphic.
I'm curious about the correct aspect ratio as well. I recently purchased the MOC and am very pleased with the transfer.

User avatar
Gigi M.
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:09 pm
Location: Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep

#29 Post by Gigi M. » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:41 am

The Criterion looks amazing...

Beaver.

User avatar
GringoTex
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am

#30 Post by GringoTex » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:29 am

Gigi M. wrote: The Criterion looks amazing...
Criterion image quality appears vastly superior to MoCs, but now we have another aspect ratio debate.

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#31 Post by denti alligator » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:39 am

I really liked the dark look of the MoC. But I have to say that next to the Criterion I may have to double-dip.

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

#32 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:47 am

It looks like the Criterion may be some sort of opened matte version.

I tend to think that the MOC release looks a lot better than these screen shots seem to show...

Daze73
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:57 pm

#33 Post by Daze73 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:45 am

I think the MoC looks far better than the Criterion release which is WAY too contrast boosted with unnatural colors, less detail and clipping whites. I'll definitely keep my MoC...

User avatar
sevenarts
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 7:22 pm
Contact:

#34 Post by sevenarts » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:50 am

Yea, to me the Criterion looks really unnatural. The MOC is dark, but looks much more cinematic and natural -- the Criterion makes it look like a bad TV drama. I'll be keeping the MOC as well, brighter does not mean better.

User avatar
lazier than a toad
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:30 pm

#35 Post by lazier than a toad » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:54 am

The MoCs slightly darker, greener image reminds of the DVDs of Ozu's colour films in what is apparently their correct contrast, colour, etc. which suggests to me that the Criterion Vengeance ... is the less genuine of the two.

Has the film been released on DVD in Japan?

User avatar
souvenir
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:20 pm

#36 Post by souvenir » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:55 am

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Criterion looks off. Imamura didn't make Technicolor musicals.

User avatar
skuhn8
wax on; wax off
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: Chico, CA

#37 Post by skuhn8 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:00 pm

souvenir wrote:I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Criterion looks off. Imamura didn't make Technicolor musicals.
I'm just hoping the double-dippers'll dump their MOC's so I can pick one up--it's been on my to-buy list for awhile. I, too, think the MOC looks better.

Narshty
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:27 pm
Location: London, UK

#38 Post by Narshty » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:42 pm

Yes - add my support for the MoC. 1.66:1 is clearly too opened up - there's gallons of headroom there. Elegant 1.85:1 compositions are pretty much ruined and the nearly-flourescent colours are not in keeping with the dour, everyday tone of the film. It's another Good Morning/Le Cercle Rouge colour standardisation hackjob.

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

#39 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:21 pm

There is a re-mastered Japanese DVD of "Vengeance" as I recall -- but I've never seen it (nor seen any screen captures of it).

User avatar
TheGodfather
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 pm
Location: The Netherlands

#40 Post by TheGodfather » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:35 pm

I prefer the MoC transfer. The Criterion might be sharper but it seems to be too much and unnatural. I keep my MoC version :D

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

#41 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:20 pm

This forum is just too weird sometimes... Criterion's clear and crisp image is a "hackjob"?!?! Next you'll all agree that the new All That Jazz DVD has superior image

User avatar
arsonfilms
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

#42 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:43 pm

God forbid we see an image that dosen't have a muted haze throughout. It was clearly never the director's intention to have natural skin tones and lifelike colors, with people that don't blend into the background. Who does Criterion think they are?

User avatar
Steven H
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:30 pm
Location: NC

#43 Post by Steven H » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:11 pm

They both seem to contain the same amount of detail though both have defects. I seriously doubt Imamura meant for white paper to be glowing blue (as in the fourth capture, Criterion) or that the courtroom sequence took place in the middle of the night (as in the third capture, MoC). In my book, they both even out on coloring and brightness negatives. I'll *definitely* stick with the MoC for the correct aspect ratio, commentary, and book (but I'll gladly rent the Criterion for the interview).

I wonder if Criterion's booklet is, other than the new essay, mostly reprinted material from Quandt's book (already reprinted from other sources)?

User avatar
thechallenger
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:56 pm
Location: New York

#44 Post by thechallenger » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:15 pm

Hi,

I'm new to this board.

After viewing the screen comparsions on the DVDBeaver website - I don't see what's so wrong with the image-quality of the Criterion release? To me - it looks a heck of a lot better than I would have expected.

I've seen some folks on here say that the MOC version doesn't look as bad as the screen captures would have us believe - then why isn't the Criterion edition given the same benefit of the doubt? Maybe the Criterion edition doesn't look as bad as some of you folks seem to think it is?

User avatar
lazier than a toad
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:30 pm

#45 Post by lazier than a toad » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:41 pm

I think alot of people's problem with the Criterion's colours and perhaps framing is that they are not true to the original film, but have been boosted and other wise changed. Perhaps to make it appear more like what domestic US and European audiences expect to see in their films.

User avatar
Tribe
The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Contact:

#46 Post by Tribe » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:19 pm

A question regarding the aspect ratio...looking at the stills on Beaver, it seems there is "more" image visible at the edges of the stills. Is that a function of the ARs or has the MOC been cropped?

Tribe

EDIT: How do we know the green tint in the MOC is more accurate?

User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#47 Post by kinjitsu » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:30 pm

I'm with domino and arson on this. It's clear to me which transfer has the most natural color and detail, and judging from the color in Imamura's later films, Criterion's transfer seems spot on, and yes, Tribe, it appears that the Criterion does contain more information.

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#48 Post by denti alligator » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:36 pm

Can we get peerpee/Nick to chime in here? I'd like to know about how the decision was made with respect to brightness, etc. on the MoC edition.

I repeat that I really loved the dark look of the film when I first watched the MoC disc and that it only next to the Criterion that I question this. The Criterion definitely seems too bright; the tone, color, and light in the last cap, however, looks best on the Criterion.

User avatar
tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:18 pm

#49 Post by tavernier » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:40 pm

For what it's worth, when BAM in Brooklyn showed the film a couple months ago, it definitely looked more like the Criterion image.....I don't remember the aspect ratio, however.

User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#50 Post by kinjitsu » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:52 pm

It's been a while, but I don't recall the film being that dark on the big screen. Mind you, the MoC maintains an esteemed place in my collection and I wouldn't consider letting it go any more than I would consider getting rid of any of their other discs just because a Criterion looks this way or that. What we apparently have here is a case of different source materials.
This new high-definition digital transfer was created on a Spirit 2k Datacine from a new 35mm low-contrast print made from the original camera negative.

Post Reply